Bunkai for Nukite?

[Dirty Dog]

As well as the knuckles, the hand also conatins one of the hardest parts of the human body with which the stirke. It is simply not necessary to dedicate large amounts of time conditioning the soft parts to become hard, in many cases permanently deforming yourself in the process.

It is, if you want to be able to use the spearhand strike. Which is, after all, exactly what is being discussed.
Now, I'll agree that there's no reason for the vast majority of people to condition the fingers and hands to this extent.
But for those few who do decide to use this strike, the conditioning is not nearly as horrible as you make it out to be. Assuming it's done properly, of course.
I don't train the spearhand now, but I did as a younger man. And my hands work just fine. Be sort of impossible to do my job if they didn't.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.

 

[punisher73]

It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.

glad I'm not the only one who practices the weapon formation and resistance with it by using it to open doors. LOL

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.

Wow, I totally thought I was alone in that. Glad to know there are other crazies like me

As a side note, we were taught both as a strike and as a precursor to a grab, but I mainly use it as the second.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Keep in mind that martial art strikes are specific. The strikes were designed as a tool in which we can just hit any part of the body without consequence. Strikes with the fingers are no different. The finger strikes are designed to hit certain areas such as soft targets and body cavities like the arm pits. Even though these targets are soft targets, it's still vital that you condition the fingers. Most martial artists don't have the necessary conditioning to use these type of finger striking techniques.
You can always tells which martial artists condition the hands and fingers because their hands and fingers are thicker. I'm not ashamed to say that a spearhand to the throat is probably a risky technique for me and I'm more likely to injure myself trying to actually use that technique. I don't think my fingers could take the impact

 

[MI_martialist]

Nukite is really just the formation of the hand...how it gets to the end position is another discussion.

Nukite hand position was originally used to support a tanto thrust.

 

[Paul_D]

Historically the nukite was an actual strike..

+Was it?

See number two:-
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/

When people don’t know what a movement is for they guess. The problem is they often use WYSIWYG as the basis for their guess. Are we to assume all of these guesses are correct?

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.

However we already have enough striking tools on our bodies for every target we could wish to hit. So it would make more sense to continue training these, and getting better at them, than it would to dedciate valuable training time to creating new completely unnecessary parts of are body to strike with.

Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.

We will never know for sure, but I try to always include an element of common sense and practicality when listening to people’s interpretations. But of course everyone is entitled to beleive what they want, it is after all their safety they are gambling with not mine, so people have to beleive what they think is best for them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.

I think this is important because self-defense shouldn't be complicated, it should be practical. The concepts behind a technique can be complex but the application has to be practical enough to be able to do in an instance.

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation

This is true with even the basic punches. You have to spend many hours, months, and years of conditioning to the body to ensure you can apply the technique without damaging yourself. Something as a punch is not an "out of the box" technique that can just be fired without damaging the hand. A poorly aligned wrist can be just as damaging as unconditioned knuckles.

 

[hoshin1600]

+Was it?

See number two:-
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/

When people don’t know what a movement is for they guess. The problem is they often use WYSIWYG as the basis for their guess. Are we to assume all of these guesses are correct?

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.

However we already have enough striking tools on our bodies for every target we could wish to hit. So it would make more sense to continue training these, and getting better at them, than it would to dedciate valuable training time to creating new completely unnecessary parts of are body to strike with.

Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.

We will never know for sure, but I try to always include an element of common sense and practicality when listening to people’s interpretations. But of course everyone is entitled to beleive what they want, it is after all their safety they are gambling with not mine, so people have to beleive what they think is best for them.

Was it???
In uechi ryu karate, as in the clip that I posted yes it was.
As far as your reference to a blog post by some dude named Jessie , I think you are assuming that I am guessing the "meaning" of the action called a nukite. Well I am not guessing. . I really don't care what Jessie says , ( I do agree with his point but it does not apply here) I have studied and learnt from many legit 8th, 9th and 10th dans in uechi ryu. I spent time with Shinyu Gushi and Ryuko Tomoyose( considered a national living treasure in okinawa). The clip I posted was of Kiyohide Shinjo. Now maybe these names mean nothing to you but they are on the same level and importance as Miyagi, Higgaona, Motobu, Funakoshi, Itosu. The creators, if you will of okinawan karate.
If kanei uechi says it's a finger tip strike then it's a finger tip strike and your opinion , my opinion and the roman Catholic popes opinion on the application and " meaning" is pretty irrelevant.

 

[hoshin1600]

The problem is not forgetfulness of what the meanings were 100 years or so ago. The problem is a matter of context. Part of Kanbun Uechi 's training was in Chinese medicine that includes the belief in chi meridians. It is most likely that a finger tip strike was designed to strike and disrupt the flow of chi along a meridian line. Now in 2016 you are trying to overlay your own beliefs on top of something thought up 120 years in the past. Your current disbelief in chi does not negate the reason for its original design and use. Is a nukite useful in 2016 probably not doesn't change its use in the past.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body,

The fingers are not even close to being the most fragile parts of your body.

that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.

Depends on the target. I can think of a number of targets that could be struck with the fingertips without requiring any significant time spent conditioning. Eyes. Larynx. Carotid. Solar plexus. Femoral nerve....

 

[Tez3]

The fingers are not even close to being the most fragile parts of your body.



Depends on the target. I can think of a number of targets that could be struck with the fingertips without requiring any significant time spent conditioning. Eyes. Larynx. Carotid. Solar plexus. Femoral nerve....

if you think I'm going to get eyeballs impaled on my nicely shaped, very strong, varnished nails you have another think coming!
While nukite is undoubtedly a spear hand strike I do use it in other ways as well, slightly off from original intent but it works ( oh I know it does so does the person I used it on ) so I'm happy with it.

 

[Paul_D]

So let’s look at this from a different angle.

One of the key elements in the explanation for any movement is that it must explain everything that’s going on, not just one part of the movement. If we take one example, using nukite as a takedown (as in Iain Abernethy’s video) it explains what the right hand is doing, it explains what the left hand is doing and why it is where it is, and it explains why we need to use the stance we use rather than using a different stance. It follows then it is one acceptable explanation for the movement. Not the only one of course, but certainly one.

The same cannot be said of nukite as a “spearhand strike” (putting aside the obvious problems of striking with the tips of the fingers) a spear hand strike only explains what one hand is doing. It does not explain what the non striking hand is doing or why it is underneath the elbow of the striking hand. Nor does it explain why we stepping forward into the stance we are using, rather than any other stance.

If we are striking the throat or the ribs, as has been suggested, then stepping forward into this stance means we are starting the movement from too far away for the left hand to be seizing the opponent. Why then is the non striking hand where it is, and what is it doing? If we are performing the strike from a position where we are close enough to seize with the left hand, then the only way we can use this stance is if we step backwards into it. But the movement isn’t performed by stepping backways.

There are too many pieces of the jigsaw which do not fit. This should, with the additional of common sense, be enough to tell us this explanation is incorrect and that we need to look for another.

It’s the same with the explanation of Shuto Uke as a block, that only explains what one hand is doing. It does not explain why we are stepping forward, why we are using the stance we are using nor does it adequately explain what the non blocking hand is doing. Other explanations do all these things, and yet they are ignored by some in favour of “block”.

It is pointless to argue of course. You can give a person knowledge, but you cannot make them think. Some people want to remain fools only because the truth requires change.

 

[hoshin1600]

So let’s look at this from a different angle.

One of the key elements in the explanation for any movement is that it must explain everything that’s going on, not just one part of the movement. If we take one example, using nukite as a takedown (as in Iain Abernethy’s video) it explains what the right hand is doing, it explains what the left hand is doing and why it is where it is, and it explains why we need to use the stance we use rather than using a different stance. It follows then it is one acceptable explanation for the movement. Not the only one of course, but certainly one.

The same cannot be said of nukite as a “spearhand strike” (putting aside the obvious problems of striking with the tips of the fingers) a spear hand strike only explains what one hand is doing. It does not explain what the non striking hand is doing or why it is underneath the elbow of the striking hand. Nor does it explain why we stepping forward into the stance we are using, rather than any other stance.

If we are striking the throat or the ribs, as has been suggested, then stepping forward into this stance means we are starting the movement from too far away for the left hand to be seizing the opponent. Why then is the non striking hand where it is, and what is it doing? If we are performing the strike from a position where we are close enough to seize with the left hand, then the only way we can use this stance is if we step backwards into it. But the movement isn’t performed by stepping backways.

There are too many pieces of the jigsaw which do not fit. This should, with the additional of common sense, be enough to tell us this explanation is incorrect and that we need to look for another.

It’s the same with the explanation of Shuto Uke as a block, that only explains what one hand is doing. It does not explain why we are stepping forward, why we are using the stance we are using nor does it adequately explain what the non blocking hand is doing. Other explanations do all these things, and yet they are ignored by some in favour of “block”.

It is pointless to argue of course. You can give a person knowledge, but you cannot make them think. Some people want to remain fools only because the truth requires change.

Your logic is sound in this post but you are referring to one instance found in one lineage of karate. Since I do not know the kata you are referring too I cannot comment on its application. However it should be acknowledged that there are many kata and many styles and we all know that one should not make sweeping comments or judgments.

 

[punisher73]

+Was it?

See number two:-
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/

When people don’t know what a movement is for they guess. The problem is they often use WYSIWYG as the basis for their guess. Are we to assume all of these guesses are correct?

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.

However we already have enough striking tools on our bodies for every target we could wish to hit. So it would make more sense to continue training these, and getting better at them, than it would to dedciate valuable training time to creating new completely unnecessary parts of are body to strike with.

Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.

We will never know for sure, but I try to always include an element of common sense and practicality when listening to people’s interpretations. But of course everyone is entitled to beleive what they want, it is after all their safety they are gambling with not mine, so people have to beleive what they think is best for them.

You have been given examples and historical facts that in Okinawan karate, the nukite was a strike. The article you posted even states that the transmission from okinawa to japan was lost (your #2), but we have shown that the spearhand was a spearhand in Okinawan karate, this is not a guess. These are lineages that trace to the founders of their style.

BUT, like I said previously, if you are just talking about the motions of the hands in kata, then "yes" it can be more than JUST a spearhand strike. That does not negate either premise though. Motions in kata can have multiple uses, I think we can all be in agreement about that aspect.

I will leave you with an old Shaolin Temple Maxim:

"Since we have no swords or spears,
we shall make our hands into
swords and our fingers into spears."

Again, you can argue that you don't want to condition the weapon, or that there are better options etc. That does NOT negate that historically, they DID condition their fingers for long periods of time.

 

[Ademadis]

Just want to say thanks for al the discussion, it's been really interesting to read through the different interpretations

 

[punisher73]

"In the early days Master Higaonna taught Sanchin exactly as he had learned it from Ryu Ryu Ko Roshi. The breathing method was rapid and the hand movements were performed with nukute (spear hand) rather than with the closed fist, as it is practiced today.

Sanchin kata was practiced with nukite when Chojun Miyagi first learned it from Higaonna Sensei. Chojun Sensei related to An'ichi Miyagi that during Sanchin practice, when executing nukite, Higaonna Sensei would tell him to blow hard as he trust out his hand quickly.

It is not certain exactly when nukite in Sanchin changed to the closed fist, but An'ichi Sensei did say "From olden times in China, nukite has been practiced and tempered to be a strong and dangerous technique. In Okinawa on the other hand, tijikun (Okinawan Fist) has been practiced for centuries. Punching the makiwara is natural for Okinawans. It is most likely for this reason the nukute strike changed to the closed fist.

Kanryo Higaonna's adoption of the closed fist was very likely related to his teaching at the Commercial High School, where his emphasis moved from the martial aspects of karate to the development of the human spirit. With the adoption of the closed fist the breathing method was slowed down, enhancing the development of physical strength and health." P 37

An interesting historical note about nukite in Okinawan karate and thoughts about it even back then. This quote comes from Morio Higonna's book on Goju Ryu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sorry I missed this conversation. No one seems to have mentioned the proper hand formation for the nukite, which helps in soft tissue strikes, even if you don't condition your hands.

 

[Paul_D]

Motions in kata can have multiple uses

They can, but you have to have some way of filtering out the impractical and/or idiotic interpretations.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

They can, but you have to have some way of filtering out the impractical and/or idiotic interpretations.

There may be impractical or incorrect applications, but I have found more often, techniques so labelled were poorly taught or badly understood.

To date, I have been shown many applications I cannot myself yet perform adroitly. however I am convinced of their practicality through painful tuition.

There are bogus techniques. However, I try to avoid that label until I become convinced that the instructor themselves cannot make it work on a resisting partner.