bujinkan for combat ??

[allenjp]

the one that follows the fool is more foolish than the fool.

Dude, are you making fun of my signature line??? That is a DEFINITE party foul.

 

[shesulsa]

Heh. One of my kids just pointed out to me that a traditional martial art is like a 10 course meal ... drawn out, carefully planned and timed, designed for full exploration and appreciation of each course; whereas UFC-style fighting is fast food ... like a macho combo burrito.

Just passing along the observation of a kid in TMA for 11 years. :asian:

 

[kaizasosei]

Not at all! Didn't mean for any misunderstandings...

it's just that your line spoke to me in a deep sortof way...

i meant that i was being the fool.

 

[kaizasosei]

Not at all! Didn't mean for any misunderstandings...

it's just that your line spoke to me in a deep sortof way...

i meant that i was being the fool for following or getting worked up by foolishness

 

[Archangel M]

Good points being made.

I believe (take that as you will) that if I were training people to go into combat (military etc) that I would want to know that it worked, and just because its being claimed that this stuff worked in ancient Japan wouldnt cut it. While MMA/boxing etc isnt "proof" that it works in "combat", they are far closer to the real thing than a lot of the canned exchanges practiced in some styles. ANY martial art can be a good combat art if trained in a realistic manner.

Thing is, not everybody necessarily wants or needs a martial art for "combat" or wants to spar, get blodied up and ground n' pounded and thats A-OK, just dont pump these people up into believing that they are "warriors" or combat ready.

 

[jarrod]

lots of good points here, & generally respectful as well. a couple of my thoughts:

1) "it is the artist not the art"--this is true, any art may have capable fighters/combatants, BUT this doesn't mean that the techniques, principles, & teaching methods of different arts shouldn't be compared & up for discussion.

personally, i don't believe you can call your art a combat art or even a self-defense art if you do not train under simulated combat stress, i.e., sparring &/or competing. i think it's terrific that historical arts are preserved, & they may aid in combat, but they are first & foremost historical.

2) this is not to say that all sparring & competition arts or approaches are geared towards combat either. there is a bit misconception that since styles used in mma work in a cage, they work in all other scenarios as well. this is not true, however mma training & competition can teach a martial artist a lot about will, conflict, determination, etc. combat & self-defense are not choreographed. to train for it soley with choreography is a questionable approach for any style.

jf

 

[stephen]

Good points being made.

I believe (take that as you will) that if I were training people to go into combat (military etc) that I would want to know that it worked, and just because its being claimed that this stuff worked in ancient Japan wouldnt cut it. While MMA/boxing etc isnt "proof" that it works in "combat", they are far closer to the real thing than a lot of the canned exchanges practiced in some styles. ANY martial art can be a good combat art if trained in a realistic manner.

Thing is, not everybody necessarily wants or needs a martial art for "combat" or wants to spar, get blodied up and ground n' pounded and thats A-OK, just dont pump these people up into believing that they are "warriors" or combat ready.

'Combat' and 'War' are not the same things. This is my main issue with these sorts of discussions.

 

[jks9199]

lots of good points here, & generally respectful as well. a couple of my thoughts:

1) "it is the artist not the art"--this is true, any art may have capable fighters/combatants, BUT this doesn't mean that the techniques, principles, & teaching methods of different arts shouldn't be compared & up for discussion.

personally, i don't believe you can call your art a combat art or even a self-defense art if you do not train under simulated combat stress, i.e., sparring &/or competing. i think it's terrific that historical arts are preserved, & they may aid in combat, but they are first & foremost historical.

Sparring is, at best, a faint mimicry of the reality of a fight. Competition sparring is even less like a real fight. There are ways to practice and train that introduce various elements of a real fight, and sparring does play a role in that. But it's only one part of the equation.

2) this is not to say that all sparring & competition arts or approaches are geared towards combat either. there is a bit misconception that since styles used in mma work in a cage, they work in all other scenarios as well. this is not true, however mma training & competition can teach a martial artist a lot about will, conflict, determination, etc. combat & self-defense are not choreographed. to train for it soley with choreography is a questionable approach for any style.

jf

The advantage that MMA, judo randori, boxing, and wrestling have over the ways that many martial arts are practiced AS PREPARATION FOR COMBAT is that they regularly involve training with resisting opponents and receiving the shock of actual contact/force.

 

[Nolerama]

Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.

This is a little off topic, but I think that getting hit in the face is a concept that lots of MAists don't ever get: it' a reality. It's sad, because I'd rather spend time in an altercation fighting, rather than standing there awestruck that I got hit in the face...

But back to the topic, I've seen that vid before, but I think it's oddly swayed towards the author's opinion. Aren't there Bujinkan schools out there that spar? I'm sure there are, as well as Bujinkan schools that train for modern weaponry.

 

[Ronnin]

It is simple.

You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.

You train in Self Defence to be good at Self Defence.

You train in Combat to be good at Combat.

Bujinkan per se, is not Self Defence or Combat, and as has been said, it will not make a 'fighter' out of anyone who does not already have the mindset and a bit of experience to be one.

But you can train to get your Self Defence in top notch condition, and you can train to be safer on the streets of Rio or Kabul, or in law enforcement etc, if you integrate Bujinkan into your self defence and combat training.

Lets face it, if you want to send 100 young men to war, do you send them to a local Bujinka dojo or an army camp? If you want to send 100 law enforcement officers out on the streets do you send them to a dojo or for police training? And if you want your sister to be safe at University but she only wants to train in condensed self defence strategies for a couple of months and not spend years perfecting Kihon Happo and Gyokko Ryu kata, do you really send her to what generally constitutes a Bujinkan dojo?

Lots of people use Bujinkan for combat, law enforcement, self defence, bodyguarding, even sports martial arts in some cases, but the Bujinkan is only an aspect of what they do, even if it is the underlying core.

Look at youtube, look at all the black belts, do you really think they are all real mean tough streetfighters? Look at their students, doing floppy complacent, compliant training with friends they can trust, a university hobby, no different to football (and probably less use in a tight spot).

The Bujinkan is a fantastic thing. But if you want to use it for combat and real fighting, you need to train as though you are going to do so, or you will be in a real state of shock and a lot of pain very quickly when you find yourself in a situation where you need to protect yourself and others from harm.

We are told to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, but we should be far more concerned about sheep in wolves clothing, and should not become such a thing ourselves.

I could not agree with you more. VERY well put !!!!!

 

[ElfTengu]

Firstly, I am not anti Bujinkan. As a Bujinkan yudansha that just wouldn't make sense.

The points about it being down to the individual, or the 'artist' rather than the 'art', and everything about the 'potential' of Bujinkan material is absoloutely right, but it means nothing as worded opinion on an internet forum.

The army doesn't leave so much to chance when it trains its soldiers. Barring making them dodge real bullets, it makes pretty damn sure they are ready for combat before sending them into combat. It could obviously do more, but it still does a lot more to prepare it's people for stressful situations than we do in 99% of our taijutsu dojo.

Some other arts, the ones I mentioned in an earlier post, take a LOT more responsibilty for the shaping of each individual student into an exponent who can not only go through the moves and understand the principles and generally look pretty good when training with fellow student in the same art, but who is also psycholocially prepared for real violence by being exposed to it, i.e. they get smacked in the head (albeit with gloves), slammed to the ground hard, and are far more often in a position where they don't know what kind of attack is coming. It's not much like many real fights, despite what they say, but it's better than kata and endless 'careful' training against 'known' attacks. Look around you next time you are training. Most people aren't even doing it right when they know exactly what the attack is going to be. Make them respond spontaneously to an unscripted attack and they perhaps aren't going to do all that well, especially if the unscripted attack doesn't stop at a defined point but keeps coming and coming and coming (like when someone is trying to hurt you for real).

And like it or not folks, we don't do enough to prepare the individual. I'm sure some of you do, and are entitled to be indignant, but I believe we all need to up our game a bit to maintain the integrity of our art against all that shameful representation of it on youtube.

Because the people in most of those clips deserve every bit of ridicule they get. Simple as.

 

[AbsZero]

I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality. And Bujinkan is very "quantitative". Many shidoshis, shihans, every one of them with diferent philosophy... And like one great sensei said - Martial-arts aren't supposed to be thought to large number of people. They can, but only few will obtain real knowlege. That means that real martial-artist need to search and gain knowlege non-stop, in every moment, and that's hard, it takes great deal of devotion... Maybe that's the reason why we have lager number of unprepared budokas for real situations in Bujinkan...

 

[ElfTengu]

I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality. And Bujinkan is very "quantitative". Many shidoshis, shihans, every one of them with diferent philosophy... And like one great sensei said - Martial-arts aren't supposed to be thought to large number of people. They can, but only few will obtain real knowlege. That means that real martial-artist need to search and gain knowlege non-stop, in every moment, and that's hard, it takes great deal of devotion... Maybe that's the reason why we have lager number of unprepared budokas for real situations in Bujinkan...

Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.

I know taijutsu can't really be objectively judged without us killing and maiming large numbers of people ninja-stylee, but I am of the school of thought that we should still be willing to train with people on their terms and not do too badly, I mean we have throws and takedowns so we should be able to do randori with Judoka and other grapplers, and we should be willing to trade a few punches and kicks with strikers (pads on of course) if only to see what potential 'opponents' are capable of and to make sure we have an 'answer'.

It certainly beats getting fat and going up a gi size every year, being out of condition, only training slowly against compliant training partners and known attacks, and making all sorts of excuses and claims of combat effectiveness.

I don't expect any of us to come out of an exchange with Chuck Lidell in fine health, but we should be able to hold our own against other 'hobby martial artists' and our black belts should aspire to the same quality in our own art as others do in theirs.

 

[AbsZero]

Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.

I couldn't agree more. Off course, there are no excuses.

I mean we have throws and takedowns so we should be able to do randori with Judoka and other grapplers, and we should be willing to trade a few punches and kicks with strikers (pads on of course) if only to see what potential 'opponents' are capable of and to make sure we have an 'answer'.

The exactly same thing my sensei and I have in mind. We did some martial contact sports before ninjutsu, we have a lot of friends in those sports, and we see no reason why we shouldn't work with them in that fashion. I mean, we have much more takedowns and throws then any other sport, much more punches, we can punch like systema guys and boxers in the same time (at least we should be able to). But, how much is that worth if we only know that all those things exist in ninjutsu and do not train and practise all those things? Very little...

It certainly beats getting fat and going up a gi size every year, being out of condition, only training slowly against compliant training partners and known attacks, and making all sorts of excuses and claims of combat effectiveness.

LOL, good point...

I don't expect any of us to come out of an exchange with Chuck Lidell in fine health, but we should be able to hold our own against other 'hobby martial artists' and our black belts should aspire to the same quality in our own art as others do in theirs.

Agree...

 

[ElfTengu]

Of course putting it into practice is another thing altogether and I'm as guilty as most, which is why you don't see me posting on youtube, and there are very very few stills of me in action even!:uhyeah:

I'm trying to go down a gi size as we speak, and like you, I am planning some extra curricular training with a fellow practitioner. We both used to be in the BBD, in fact he was my instructor in those days, and whilst we appreciate the authenticity of having moved over to the mainstream Bujinkan, we do miss the sparring and fitness aspects of training that Brian McCarthy used to insist upon.

So I suppose it is time to stop talking and get training!:angel:

 

[jarrod]

The advantage that MMA, judo randori, boxing, and wrestling have over the ways that many martial arts are practiced AS PREPARATION FOR COMBAT is that they regularly involve training with resisting opponents and receiving the shock of actual contact/force.

i agree. i do disagree with the spirit of the quote you inserted, however. sparring & competition are clearly not combat or self-defense, but they are as close as you can get without regularly hospitalizing yourself.

jf

 

[jks9199]

i agree. i do disagree with the spirit of the quote you inserted, however. sparring & competition are clearly not combat or self-defense, but they are as close as you can get without regularly hospitalizing yourself.

jf

It wasn't meant to be inserted as a quote; it was meant to be a break, because it was my comment. I apologize for any confusion on that count...

But, having been in real fights, as well as countless sparring matches -- it's not the same. Unless you're going to send your training partners to the hospital (or go yourself).

Sparring is but ONE means of practicing the learned techniques against an opponent. There are many others -- and all play a role.

 

[stephen]

I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality.

This is only true if everyone has equal ability/interest in 'getting good'. Otherwise quantity leads to 'absolute' quality.

I believe that the 'quality' of the Bujinkan is defined by MAX(members) not AVG(members). Or maybe we can split the different and settle on the average of the best.

For myself I define the quality based only on my teachers, after all, really, they are my Bujinkan. Random people on youtube are not teaching me to stay safe.

 

[jarrod]

It wasn't meant to be inserted as a quote; it was meant to be a break, because it was my comment. I apologize for any confusion on that count...

But, having been in real fights, as well as countless sparring matches -- it's not the same. Unless you're going to send your training partners to the hospital (or go yourself).

Sparring is but ONE means of practicing the learned techniques against an opponent. There are many others -- and all play a role.

i think we're agreeing here. i know that fighting & sparring are different, but sparring is as close as you can safely come to fighting.

jf

 

[jks9199]

i think we're agreeing here. i know that fighting & sparring are different, but sparring is as close as you can safely come to fighting.

jf

No, it's not. It's as close as you can come to ONE aspect of fighting. This is vearing way off topic; I'll be beginning a new thread in an appropriate area shortly, should anyone care to continue the "sparring as an approximation of fighting" discussion.