Bujinkan as religious org. and christian practitioners

[Bruno@MT]

However, in a few other dojo, I remember the instructors making it a point to -not- bow to the Japan flag, for "as Americans, we do not bow before the symbols of another country". I saw their point, but found it rediculous. My bowing to the Japan flag was no more a sign of allegeance than shaking another father's hand was pledging him as my own father (roughly worded, hope it makes sense).

Yes, this makes perfect sense.
Once you assume the role of student, your nationality becomes a moot point and you follow protocol because that is the respectful thing to do.

This is why we address people by their titles on the mat (sensei, renshi, ...) and by their name outside the martial arts context. On the mat I defer to their seniority and title. Outside, they are my peers.

 

[Kajowaraku]

This is why we address people by their titles on the mat (sensei, renshi, ...) and by their name outside the martial arts context. On the mat I defer to their seniority and title. Outside, they are my peers.

True and not true. While your own instructor might not mind or take insult, if you were to find yourself in the rather unlikely position of running into soke or one of the shihan while shopping for a nice new wet stone you probably would do best to not adres them by their first name. If anything last name with the appropriate suffix to express respect, and probably best (certainly if they would know you to be a member) by their appropriate title. In Japan it is not uncustom to refer to people by their title rather than name. Soke would be soke, whether he would be present or not, just as a teacher, professor or doctor would probably be adressed by his or her title rather than name. Even out of the direct context of praxis.

Actually the notion of -on the mat traditional, of the mat casual- is a very Western, postmodern interpretation of traditional social interaction. Traditionally there is no real distinction. The paradox is that this doesn't really have any bearing on the relative quality of people, just on their relative position in the social interactions they have engaged in, be it mandatory or otherwise.

Thing is that in the West, expecting this from your students is a quick lane to being labelled self-absorbed or something like that. To the Western mind it easily feels icky, but traditionaly the relationship between teacher and student is of one utmost respect, loyalty and devotion. Not one of peers, but rather that between a father and his son.

Personally I feel this is complex matter to fully understand, and often underestimated or ignored by Western practioners. Koryu demands determination and devotion. There is no other way.

Personally I would never demand or expect this of anybody, and given my relative inexperience it would probably feel moer than just a bit awkward too. I'm a Westerner too afterall. But that is not really the point here. The point is that the art we train in is distinctly not modern, not Western.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Rest assured that I would not do that
One of the differences (other than their respective status within the organization is that I do not know outside of Genbukan context. Whereas I sometimes see Renshi and you in a more social context.

It is also worth noting (in my inexperienced opinion) that westerners as a people have more real social contact with one another that the Japanese. Maintaining the strong hierarchy that comes natural to the Japanese is mutually exlusive with having the more social interactions that exist between us westerners.

Actually, I think it would be possible, and even accepted, but that would require of the 'higher ups' that they maintain their distance in all their social interaction with anyone who has dealings with them. And even then they would have to allow for the fact that in our society, family comes first.

So on the whole, the compromise that we have in distinguishing between on-mat and off-mat is a way to allow the traditional organization to exist in our society without too much of a clash. And I realize that this only works when all people involved understand the reasons for the compromise. It goes without saying that I would never address Soke by his first name.

The internet is similarly a grey area. For example, I got to know Shihan Troy Wideman here on MT where everybody is rather informal. And not knowing his status within Genbukan, I addressed him by his first name in the communications I had with him (at least I think so. I could have used 'Mr. Wideman' but I don't remember). And from the communications I had with him after that, that was not an issue. Yet if I would meet him in real life (on the mat or off) I would never presume that the informality of the internet would be applicable.

If anything, blending the Japanese traditional arts with our western culture, in a way that does not damage either, is an everlasting challenge.

 

[Kajowaraku]

Rest assured that I would not do that

I sort of presumed you wouldn't. It was merely an example.

You are of course right in what you say from a macrosociological point of view. However, that is not exactly what I was getting at. Let me be a bit more specific. Speaking for myself I know that the single most powerful boost in my martial arts came not directly from training more, but from the sudden switch that caused me to fully devote myself to Sensei, and put all other activities (yes, family and work somewhat excepted) on the background. I effectively have no other hobbies than that which I find in Genbukan. Even more so, I don't need any other hobbies, they would simply get in the way.

Now, if I were to distinguish between on and off mat modes of interaction/communication I would not have that problem. But when I stopped making that distinction my energy multiplied, and I found myself training at every possible time and place. By making the distinction, for me, it would somehow diminish my martial arts to the status of "just a hobby". Now, once again, i'm not judging the good man for having hobbies outside of genbukan, or whatever. I'm merely stating how it can cause internal conflict and how it can be confusing, thus eroding the pure mind (or better: by "moving the heart", while it is best left "immovable") needed for good martial arts.

This is another aspect of how transposing TJMA to the modern day west can pose a challenge, or at least how it has posed a challenge for myself. Does that make any sense?

It is also worth noting (in my inexperienced opinion) that westerners as a people have more real social contact with one another that the Japanese. Maintaining the strong hierarchy that comes natural to the Japanese is mutually exlusive with having the more social interactions that exist between us westerners.

Actually, I think it would be possible, and even accepted, but that would require of the 'higher ups' that they maintain their distance in all their social interaction with anyone who has dealings with them.

I don't fully agree. It does not necessarily mean there has to be a distance. It means finding a different approach to get closer to each other. The teacher-student relation can be very close and very personal. Formal and polite languange and interaction doesn't change that. On top of that, Japanese society has pseudo ritualised interactions where status suddenly becomes irrelevant and where grunt can be candid to his superiors. Also, there are plenty of social interactions in Japanese society, it just tends to be more group organised, and more around work related groups than simply around being buddies. Social interaction is probably less unconditional, and more regulated, but certainly not less, nor less intense. on the contrary even I might guess. Let's face it, dwindling social interactions (not counting the net) is a phenomenon that has also reached us here in the west. People increasingly prefer to lock themselves in their houses with a sixpack, a pile of leisure electronics and a bag of nachos.

 

[Muawijhe]

You are of course right in what you say from a macrosociological point of view. However, that is not exactly what I was getting at. Let me be a bit more specific. Speaking for myself I know that the single most powerful boost in my martial arts came not directly from training more, but from the sudden switch that caused me to fully devote myself to Sensei, and put all other activities (yes, family and work somewhat excepted) on the background. I effectively have no other hobbies than that which I find in Genbukan. Even more so, I don't need any other hobbies, they would simply get in the way.

However this devotion to following my direct teacher also has a weird downside. Somehow I find myself struggling to deal with the fact he seems to see no issues in combining teaching traditional martial arts with satanic music, marketeering and various other hobbies, agendas and distractions. While family and work are pure virtues in my old-fashioned thick skull; playing DJ in a deep gothic scene seems to be less fitting.

For me, my instructor constantly reminds us to have hobbies and interests outside of the martial arts; while at the same time he encourages us to adapt and apply the mindset and strategies we learn in martial arts to these extracurricular activities.

He occasionally will say something to the likes of, "I'm a person too, and though I dedicate a lot of my life to this art, I still get excited to go home for my new skateboard that came in the mail, or spend time with my life, or go to a concert." I don't skateboard, nor do I have a wife, and I'm fairly certain our music tastes are quite different. But I get his points.

Let's face it, dwindling social interactions (not counting the net) is a phenomenon that has also reached us here in the west. People increasingly prefer to lock themselves in their houses with a sixpack, a pile of leisure electronics and a bag of nachos.

Whilst a whole nother can of worms, I agree with you. Just go to the local mall shopping center and watch people. The place can be crowded (especially this time of year with holiday shopping), shoulder to shoulder, and most will be intereacting with electronic devices to distant people rather than those right next to them.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

Wow... A good one here!!

Well Me personally I had attended a few classes and a camp ran by a Bujinkan group that is established in a church.. Now to me I was fine with it, but Im not exactly christian so I had to mind my self a little and not get into any religious debates.. I found that they are great people that are training hard and with a good teacher to guide them..
I have no problem with Christianity in Bujinkan...

However, If Bujinkan makes a jump to a religious organization for tax breaks.. Well Im not to cool with that... Religion is not a coupon for tax but it seems to be used that way. Not a good move if you ask me.

Hmm.. This is a hard one!

 

[Bruno@MT]

However, If Bujinkan makes a jump to a religious organization for tax breaks.. Well Im not to cool with that... Religion is not a coupon for tax but it seems to be used that way. Not a good move if you ask me.

Hmm.. This is a hard one!

You don't know much about Japan, do you?
A couple of things. First, taxes in Japan are incredibly complex (much moreso than in Western countries) and the IRS in Japan is very stronghanded. If they suspect a company of wrongdoings, they raid the place like a US swat team would raid a meth lab.

There are various really practical reasons why being recognized as a religious organization is a good strategy. For example, if you want to pass down artefacts related to the organization (antique swords, scrolls, etc), they would not be subject to inheritance tax. there are other things as well.

Now, the religious aspect should NOT be looked at through western eyes. Every traditional Japanese martial arts organization or even dojo can be considered a religious organization. It will have a kamidana (which is a shinto shrine/altar) which will be tended to and which people will bow to at the beginning and end of class. As such, it already IS a religious organization, whether it is formally registered as such or not.

Religion in Japan is culturally different than religion here.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

You don't know much about Japan, do you?

Bruno.. I would suggest you not make comments like this.. It seems rude.. So far Im not quite into your responses to anything! You have a way of sounding rude in almost every post Ive come across with you..

And by the way Ive read the post and your reiteration on your prior replies is unnecessary..

Thank you

 

[Tanaka]

Bruno.. I would suggest you not make comments like this.. It seems rude.. So far Im not quite into your responses to anything! You have a way of sounding rude in almost every post Ive come across with you..

And by the way Ive read the post and your reiteration on your prior replies is unnecessary..

Thank you

Hes actually being polite.

 

[Bruno@MT]

So you read that post. Then why should you judge Bujinkan based on your western ideas of what 'religious organization' means? It is a Japanese organization, located in Japan, headed by a Japanese, and doing something that is perfectly normal By Japanese norms. Saying that you are 'not cool with that' shows that you don't understand what is really going on or why the Japanese (and the Bujinkan people themselves) don't think this is shocking. Or you do understand, but you still think they are 'wrong' based on what you think the words 'religion' and 'tax' mean.

It's not like they are doing this because of nefarious reasons, or that the bujinkan will suddenly become a church.

In fact it would be more correct to describe it as a religious organization to begin with, rather than a secular one, given that it, like many other traditional schools, houses a shinto shrine and embodies shinto rituals in the dojo etiquette.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

I get all of what you said... I was expressing my opinion to juzathecloud's question....

 

[oaktree]

Wow... A good one here!!

Well Me personally I had attended a few classes and a camp ran by a Bujinkan group that is established in a church.. Now to me I was fine with it, but Im not exactly christian so I had to mind my self a little and not get into any religious debates.. I found that they are great people that are training hard and with a good teacher to guide them..
I have no problem with Christianity in Bujinkan...

However, If Bujinkan makes a jump to a religious organization for tax breaks.. Well Im not to cool with that... Religion is not a coupon for tax but it seems to be used that way. Not a good move if you ask me.

Hmm.. This is a hard one!

Hi Kumori
I can not speak on behalf of Mr.Hatsumi only my opinion.
Taxes in Japan can be complex and high.
Also the thought of the government taking your collection from your estate which is essentially yours can also be problematic.

Mr.Hatsumi decided to claim his organization under religious status. That is his right and legally valid. Many other organizations have done similar things.