Bujinkan as religious org. and christian practitioners

[Bruno@MT]

I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).

I've had this discussion before in the sumo forum about throwing salt. Some people felt they could not practice sumo because some of it, like the salt throwing is religious in nature. I argue that as long as something is not a religious ritual for you, nothing prevents you from doing it. I would chuck salt because it is expected, not because I think it is a spiritual activity.

Otherwise, if I start a religion where shaking hands is a ritual, would you stop shaking people's hands because I say it is a religuous ritual?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Hi Supra,

The Kamidana is a shrine to the Kami of the Dojo and the Ryu-ha, typically with portraits of the Master Instructors/Founder, depending on the system itself. Most Aikido Dojo have a portrait of Ueshiba, for instance. We, as you know, don't have one.

Sensei,

If our dojo was to be a dedicated location solely used by our school, would we have a Kamidana? I've noticed that a lot of dojo have said portraits up but did not realise it was a shrine.

Also, thank you for the link to the poem, would the following be an accurate translation?

"The spirit of the Ninja; Body, Mind and Conscience as one enduring all. This is the principle of the forbearing spirit. First bear all humiliation, denounce ill will and resentment, raising the spirit to acquire the virtue of patience. Take not the meaning of 'Nin' to be the blade before the heart, but learning that the heart of the flower is one of peace and harmony, and like the love and affection of a flower, there is happiness in Peace. Consequently, one's body will naturally evade the opponents' sword, disappearing; This is the miracle of Truth and Falsehood in diversionary tactics. For one's country, for Justice, using the elements of Nature, Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Air to subdue one's opponent. This being is the essence of the Ninja."

 

[Krevon]

I'm a Christian Minister and a practitioner Budo Taijutsu. There is no worship of anything in the dojo. What goes on in the dojo is about self discovery. This translates of a christian life, for example, if someone were to have a salvation experience it's not enough to have that and hide out in the christian sub culture that has been created.

We strive in the dojo to learn technique and commit them to muscle memory. We try to learn the concept of technique so it may be applied in any situation with as much fluidity as possible. This same drive to learn more about Christ (or what religion you've chosen) and become intimately familiar. It's in essence disciple ship.

 

[Tez3]

I've had this discussion before in the sumo forum about throwing salt. Some people felt they could not practice sumo because some of it, like the salt throwing is religious in nature. I argue that as long as something is not a religious ritual for you, nothing prevents you from doing it. I would chuck salt because it is expected, not because I think it is a spiritual activity.

Otherwise, if I start a religion where shaking hands is a ritual, would you stop shaking people's hands because I say it is a religuous ritual?

How many people throw salt over their shoulder when it's spilt? Here it's very common and thought unlucky not to do it.

 

[Bruno@MT]

How many people throw salt over their shoulder when it's spilt? Here it's very common and thought unlucky not to do it.

True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Btw we don't have a dedicated dojo either.
Every class we hang the pictures and the scroll with the ninja seishin, and we remove them at the end of the class.

 

[Tez3]

True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.

The Christian religion however frowns on people using superstitious practices so there is no reason for them not to take part in something that has no religious significance to them while they are still believing superstitions themselves. Which is worse from a Christian point of view, taking part in someone else religious practice as an act of respect for the other religion while preserving your own belief or taking part in a superstitious practice that is discouraged and often forbidden by your own religion?

 

[Ken Morgan]

True. But in sumo, it is part of a religious practice, whereas here it is just non religious superstition which is not by default incompatible with religion.

If you don’t believe in something, its superstition. If you believe in it, its faith.

 

[Omar B]

As mentioned in the post by Sensei Parker, I think upbringing has a notable influence on thinking patterns. I'm of Indian origin raised with Eastern philosophies (Hinduism to be exact). The difference there is that at least within my own family, being multi-theistic is encouraged and supported and from a young age I was raised of the opinion that you should do the right thing because it's right, not because of any religious consequence you may face. With that in mind, while religion has it's place - and I'm not implying faith isn't important by any means - my personal approach is to remove it from most day to day activities. Again, these are purely my own beliefs. With regards to why I then posted it, I misread the original post I'm afraid and took it to mean that Bujinkan were trying to become their own religion, rather than just an organisation.

Bruno, no I'm afraid I don't know the ninja seishin or the kamidana...

This.

I was also raised in a Hindu household and freely took part in practices from other religions. Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.

 

[Cryozombie]

Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.

Thats not quite what is going on.

 

[Supra Vijai]

This.

I was also raised in a Hindu household and freely took part in practices from other religions. Besides, making BBT a religion pretty much sets the thing in stone, you won't have the art morphing as we go along like some arts.

Sorry Omar, I don't get the first bit. This? Was there meant to be a word after that?

 

[Omar B]

I quoted you ans said "this" because I was in total agreement. We both have similar upbringings from the same culture and look on religion in a similar way.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

for me it would be more a mysticism than a religious doctrine.
more about coming to know the natural life force around us and within us and being in harmony with that.
And expressing that heightened awareness in your actions is what ninjutsu is all about for me.
It is not a ritual or some gestures but more the emptiness and completeness and the one universal truth. that is my personal interpretation.
I think that this kind of thinking may be some what similar to Shinto. If not that the spirits and ancestors have names and that everything has a spirit but the idea of a spiritual world that coexist with our own. you don't need to be part of a religious organization to follow those ideas. it is more a personal belief thus I call it mysticism.

for me Ninjutsu is a natural expression of this belief. it is not separate from your true self or a sin for self protection and survival. But a natural part of us. you should be empowered when practicing ninjutsu. not at odds with your own beliefs!

 

[Rayban]

Its all very personal. IMO Martial Arts is a journey of self discovery through practicing, understanding and wanting to learn a set of moral principles and disciplines to live by. By the same token, religion is (supposed to be) a journey of self discovery through practicing, understanding and wanting to learn a set of moral principles and disciplines to live by.

Does this mean they are interchangeable? Maybe. It depends whether you are talking about institutionalised religion (churches, synagogue, mosques...etc) or as taking it what it is.

i.e. a set of moral principles that you chose to live buy. For example I am an Atheist who practices Ninjutsu. Does this mean I am an immoral person who just likes fighting? Of course not, I have my own set of moral principles. If my art was to become a recognised religion (like the Bujinkan may do) it would not deter me one iota. I would still have my principles an continue training.

As Sensei Parker said :

...So what is it? Well, a religion is a formalised system of lessons expressed through a belief system, and is not necessarily supernatural in form. These lessons are designed to teach the values of the religion, not the faith many associate with one. This is why someone may say "That's not very Christian of you...", which means it doesn't follow the lessons and values, not "that's not very supportive of the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, He died for your sins, that you may know the paradise that the Heavenly Father has prepared for you and all saved souls..."

Religion is a man made institution which, as people, gives us the right believe what we want and practice what we want. Self discovery is chosing which (if any or a combination of) path(s) to take.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I quoted you ans said "this" because I was in total agreement. We both have similar upbringings from the same culture and look on religion in a similar way.

Ahh sorry I tend to be a bit slow in the mornings

 

[Bruno@MT]

One of the reasons I personally see no issues with it is that my religious worldview is multitheist itself. Part Christian, part pagan, part shinto, and the rest is just me
The best I can explain is that in a monotheist system, there is but 1 deity and his/ her name is XYZ. Like having 1 federal government. In a multitheist system, there is one collective of deities, containing multiple specialized entities, like the various agencies and administrations that make up the federal government.

In any case, to get back to the salt throwing.
From a Christian point of view, I would not be allowed to throw salt if I accept the value as a religious ritual or valid superstition. Otoh, I would be allowed to toss the salt if I see it as no more as a quaint ritual, or (and this is a guess) if I do it to not hurt your feelings because you believe it is a religious ritual or superstition.

Even if I were a devoted Christian, I'd see no conflict in bowing to the kamidana because in our organization it is expected and mandatory. For soke it would be a religious ritual whereas for you it could be just like table manners. You'd go through the motions in order to get along, just like you'd use the right glass for the right drink, or the correct fork at the appropriate time.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

this is something i found on the internet that has great reverence for me. im sure you are all familiar with this but i think it worth mention again. i especially like when takamatsu talks about shin-shin shin-gan, "the mind and eyes of god." for me it makes alot of sense. its why i dont like christianity and how peaple look for the correct morals by rules and doctrine and dont look within for thier own sense of righteousness. not a egotistical righteousness but an unbiased outlook were one can look at the world without prejudice. to see clearly. this is my interpretation.
perhaps religion doesn't belong anywere near ninjutsu but for me it only strengthens my beliefs. without it ninjutsu would not be ninjutsu.

Essence of Ninjutsu By Toshitsugu Takamatsu 33rd Sôke, Togakure Ryu * ** Toshitsugu Takamatsu The heart of the martial arts is self-protection. However, the essence of self-protection lies in ninjutsu because ninjutsu also protects one's spirit. Therefore, without the proper spirit in martial training, one can be led to ruin. For example, medical technology is dedicated to saving life but the misuse of it can kill people. Eating and drinking are for nourishment. However, overeating harms the body. Politicians are responsible for the governing of countries and the protection of its citizens. When these politicians are greedy, ignorant, and afraid to commit their lives to their endeavors, they only bring about disorder and cause suffering. A religion, when it is sincere and steadfast, can inspire people to protect themselves, make their families thrive, and benefit the society. When it is corrupt, it destroys people and puts the nation in jeopardy. Therefore, if you are a master of the martial arts and practice ninjutsu, you will gain the most essential secret of all methods. This secret is called shin-shin shin-gan, "the mind and eyes of god." This is to know tendo, "the way of heaven." The truth of heaven excludes all evil spirits and is absolutely correct. People must have faith. This is the only justice which exists in heaven and in people. Wood, fire, soil, metal, water and spring, summer, fall, winter cannot exist without the earth. The five elemental manifestations and the four seasons balance the earth in the same manner as heaven is balanced by truth. If a person is honest, virtuous and faithful, he is walking on "the path of heaven". When he goes with the path of heaven, he is following the will of heaven. This is the mind and eyes of god. Therefore,a ninja has to be a sensible and righteous person. Ninjutsu methods of perseverance can also be understood as methods of perception. A ninja is always calm and never surprised by any situation. This is the Togakure Ryu martial way. Toshitsugu Takamatsu

 

[Tanaka]

Religion in Eastern Culture is a bit different than what Western Culture views as religion. Religion in Eastern Culture usually originates as a philosophy. So they're more philosophically oriented. And of course you have later influences of different cults that add onto it. Many Eastern religious practitioners normally practice one religion and another religion(For example you might have Buddhist Christian), and have no problem with this. While commonly in Western view you have "professing of faith" and you are either "This faith" or "That faith" Not both. That is normally why I think Westerners have issues with religion when dealing with Eastern Martial arts. They think that they're going against their own religion by practicing in something that has a different religions principles.

 

[ElfTengu]

'Ninjutsu' is the closest thing I have to a religion so I don't mind.

If people can put 'Jedi' on official census documents as their religion, then at least 'Ninja' has a clear factual origin.

As long as Soke doesn't start perfoming mass random wedding ceremonies at DKMS!

 

[Muawijhe]

Even if I were a devoted Christian, I'd see no conflict in bowing to the kamidana because in our organization it is expected and mandatory. For soke it would be a religious ritual whereas for you it could be just like table manners. You'd go through the motions in order to get along, just like you'd use the right glass for the right drink, or the correct fork at the appropriate time.

In a related theme to this, in my early martial arts endeavors I studied at many different Judo dojo. In my first school, and many others, it was customary to bow to the Japan flag before and after class, to show respect to the country of origin of that which we were studying.

However, in a few other dojo, I remember the instructors making it a point to -not- bow to the Japan flag, for "as Americans, we do not bow before the symbols of another country". I saw their point, but found it rediculous. My bowing to the Japan flag was no more a sign of allegeance than shaking another father's hand was pledging him as my own father (roughly worded, hope it makes sense).