Bujinkan as religious org. and christian practitioners

[Juzaofthecloud]

I was wondering with the Bujinkan moving towards being recognized as a religious organization in Japan, has it affected the feelings of any of the christian members? How do you feel about it?

I would like to ask the opinion of any christian practitioners who have to decided to stay in the Bujinkan or those who have decided to leave.

If you are going to stay, what factors/thoughts helped you make your decision and how do you personally reconcile the Christian doctrine of not participating in other religions with your participation in the Bujinkan?

Likewise if you decided to leave the Bujinkan. What factors/thoughts caused your decision?

I studied in the Bujinkan for several years and was thinking about getting started again after a long hiatus. I'm still trying to form my own opinion about my Christianity and the Bujinkan so I would like to hear as much discussion and thoughts from others as I can so I hopefully can come to my own conclusion about resuming training.

I don't want to stir up a can of worms, but any opinion is much appreciated. Thanks in advance to everyone, and if this thread has already been discussed, sorry for the re-post. Just point me in the right direction and I'll continue to research elsewhere.

 

[Omar B]

Only interested in what the christians have to say I see.

 

[Juzaofthecloud]

Anyones opinion is welcome. A Christian point of view just comes from a unique perspective common to my own. So I thought the perspectives of said Christians would have a simlar starting point based on Christian beliefs and practices. However others may also have knowledge of these things and have valuable opinions to share.

By all means everyone please share your thoughts.

Sorry if I made different points of view seem irrelevant. That was not my intention.

 

[dbell]

I don't think the move to a "religious" group is a "religious" move, but a political and money issue. It gives Sensei Hatsumi a means of keeping more of the money he is bringing in. So I don't think there is a real impact on Christianity or any other faith system. It is, as I understand it a means to reduce his taxes and other fees he has to pay. At least that is my understanding from what I have read in various places.

 

[Cryozombie]

Not quite.

 

[dbell]

Not quite.

Explain more!?

 

[Juzaofthecloud]

dbell,
I had heard something similar. More to the effect that it was to keep all of Hatsumi's valuable ninja and martial arts collection(scrolls, weapons, etc.) from being seized by the Japanese government when he died because of some type of tax on inheritance they have in Japan.
This is what my instructor told us students, but that was near 2 years ago. My info isn't completely up to date.

So is this the general feeling of most, that this is an effort to protect our Bujinkan heritage and has no religious nature?

 

[Chris Parker]

One thing that may be important to remember is that Japan is a multi-theistic society. In fact, it's not just multi-theistic in the way that, say, the US or Australia is, with many different religious philosophies existing side by side yet at the same time mutually exclusive; in Japan it's not considered unusual to follow both Buddhist and Shinto practices at the same time, with no contradiction at all. So when a Japanese organisation, such as the Bujinkan, looks to become a religious organisation, the idea of other religious ideologies may not factor into things, as it's considered normal to express multiple theistic ideals.

Realistically, for any Christians practicing within the Bujinkan, it will come down to personal interpretation and emphasis.

 

[Bruno@MT]

From what I understood, taxes in Japan are very complicated. Moreso than in most societies. Another difference is that in many countries, tax evasion is seen like 'not really a crime'. In Japan otoh, I have heard that it is considered a serious crime. Likewise, if the Japanese IRS decides to raid a place, they go about it in the same way that a DEA SWAT team would raid a large meth lab. All in all, you have to play by the rules.

Now, with that in mind, Hatsumi sensei has a collection of stuff that he would like to pass down to his successor, or at least stay within the Bujinkan (however the succession may turn out). Normally, the next person would have to pay significant inheritance fees. Except if the Bujinkan is recognized as a religious organization. Because then a lot of that does not apply. And In Japan this would not even be considered unusual or morally wrong.
It's just what you do to be legally ok with the tax man.

Additionally, I have read that there were talks of road reconstruction that would affect the Bujinkan hombu dojo. If it were recognized as a place of religious importance, then it would be protected, at least while Hatsumi sensei figured out a solution.

I don't know if that is accurate or not, but it is what I understood from what I read.
It most certainly has nothing to do with looking at the Bujinkan as a religion. So I really think that this is a moot point for Christians.

 

[Juzaofthecloud]

One thing that may be important to remember is that Japan is a multi-theistic society. In fact, it's not just multi-theistic in the way that, say, the US or Australia is, with many different religious philosophies existing side by side yet at the same time mutually exclusive; in Japan it's not considered unusual to follow both Buddhist and Shinto practices at the same time, with no contradiction at all. So when a Japanese organisation, such as the Bujinkan, looks to become a religious organisation, the idea of other religious ideologies may not factor into things, as it's considered normal to express multiple theistic ideals.

Realistically, for any Christians practicing within the Bujinkan, it will come down to personal interpretation and emphasis.

Yes, I definitely see your point. I recently had a discussion with my wife about that(she is Japanese). She said something similar.

Your last sentence is absolutely correct. I guess I am still trying to decide how I will interpret it. So I hope I can hear others ideas on their interpretation. Thanks for that good thought.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

I don't think the move to a "religious" group is a "religious" move, but a political and money issue. It gives Sensei Hatsumi a means of keeping more of the money he is bringing in. So I don't think there is a real impact on Christianity or any other faith system. It is, as I understand it a means to reduce his taxes and other fees he has to pay. At least that is my understanding from what I have read in various places.

i have read about this before.
anyway it doesn't need any religion in ninjutsu.
ninjutsu can also be a religion
just depends if you can blend it with an open mind

 

[Supra Vijai]

i have read about this before.
anyway it doesn't need any religion in ninjutsu.
ninjutsu can also be a religion
just depends if you can blend it with an open mind

Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by.

Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.

 

[Indagator]

imho, Ninjutsu is compatible with any and all religion - it is not a religion in and of itself, but merely offers a new perspective and way of life with which one can transcend their own selves and truly practice their theological beliefs at a previously unachievable level.

Ninjutsu is a way of living, being, thinking, doing. It is the context, not the phrase. It is the lens, not the camera. So on and so forth. Lol.

I see no conflict between my own religion and being a Ninjutsu practioner/Bujinkan student/whatever.

I would suggest any Christian who is concerned (referring of course specifically to the OP) to research further the practices and traditions of the Kakuri Kirishitan and Hanare Kirishitan. An in-depth analysis there should assuage all doubts...

 

[Tez3]

Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by.

Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.

For many people religion is not separate from the other things in their lives though so it's impossible to separate their faith from their activities. Their whole lives are inbued with their faith and whatever they do during a day must be in the spirit of their faith. I think this separating parts of a human life into boxes is a modern Western possibly Christian American thing. Not a pop at America btw but a reflection of their wish to have religion separated from the State which reflects their beginning as a State.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, let's see if we can break this down.

First off, we need to define "Religion" here. And, probably predictibly, most are defining it according to the culture that they were raised in, rather than a larger look at the concept. So let's broaden things a bit, shall we?

Religion, in it's essence, is a source of governing values and morals providing a way of approaching, or living, your life. You may note that I'm not mentioning any form of Deity here. The reason for that is that although there is typically a central figure, or a group of central figures, they are materialistically only a way of expressing the teachings and lessons of the particular religion itself. So religion is really just a way to learn to live.

The methods that are used include stories, rituals, symbolic actions, specific attributes or tools and other items, and so on. These things, these lessons on life, give rise to a religion. After all, religion is our natural responce to "Who are we? Why are we here?" and other big, important questions.

Without getting into the concepts of the existance of God, Gods, or any other such, I would simply say that God is the answer to many of these questions in a religious sense. This of course gets into the concepts of faith versus proof, experience as individual proof, and so on, but that is not the discussion here. To head that potential tangent off, whatever an individuals personal relationship with God, Gods, or some other is, that is true and valid for them, and as such cannot be disproven. Nor should it be. But really, that's kinda beside the point of what a religion is.

So what is it? Well, a religion is a formalised system of lessons expressed through a belief system, and is not necessarily supernatural in form. These lessons are designed to teach the values of the religion, not the faith many associate with one. This is why someone may say "That's not very Christian of you...", which means it doesn't follow the lessons and values, not "that's not very supportive of the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, He died for your sins, that you may know the paradise that the Heavenly Father has prepared for you and all saved souls..."

Now, there are differences between various religions, obviously. The forms and rituals followed vary, as do obviously the beliefs it expresses itself through and by. But there are also differences between Eastern and Western religions (being very general here!). For example, Western religions are based on an external focal point (God, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed), using those as centralising concepts that the values and lessons are expressed through. Culturally, these religions tend to be exclusive (you can't follow more than one), mainly as each is purporting to have the answer... and if one has the answer, the other answers can't, by definition, be the right ones. The focus is on the individual, and their relationship with their expression of God (personal, as discussed earlier). Western cultures also tend to be focused on "guilt" as a controlling mechanism.

Eastern religions are more focused on the concepts of the world around them, with religions such as Shinto being a form of reverence to the natural world around you, and lessons taken from there, as well as reverence towards your ancestors (we'll come back to that...), Confucianism and Taoism being ways of approaching life with an ideal "perfect" behaviour (which is an expression of the underlying values and beliefs), Buddhism, which focuses on becoming almost as non-invasive into the world as possible. These concepts can be applied by one person easily (paying reverance to your ancestors while approaching life with an ideal behaviour, and so on) with no conflict. Whereas the Western approach focuses on the individual and a personal relationship with the Divine, an Eastern approach is more focused on placement within a group, and the controlling mechanism is "shame".

Now, when we are discussing the concept of the Bujinkan (or Ninjutsu, or any Japanese martial art) having religious aspects, overtones, influences, or anything else, these distinctions should be kept in mind. And, for the record DuskB4Dawn, religious aspects would be considered more likely than not in any old system, Katori Shinto and Shinto Muso Ryu both contain the religious concept of Shinto in their very names (with Katori being one of the two most famous Shinto Shrines in Japan, and Shinto Muso Ryu being founded by a member of the Katori Ryu), along with Kashima Shinryu (Kashima being the other major Shinto Shrine, and the founder being again a member of the Katori Ryu) are highly influenced by Shinto, others are very influenced by Buddhism, such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and so on. There have been various religious aspects associated with different Ninjutsu traditions as well. Even the opening phrase of most Ninjutsu schools "Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo" is described as a prayer from Kumogakure Ryu.

As a result, the Bujinkan looking to be a religious organisation doesn't actually impeach on Christian doctrine (Thou shalt have no Gods before me, and other doctrine) as the concept of "religion" is rather different to the Western variant. The other important thing to realise is the exact wording here... the Bujinkan is not looking to become a religion, per se, but a religious organisation. There's a subtle difference there, really. If you are Christian (or any other Western, exclusive doctrine religion), you are not then following another religion, you have simply become part of a separate organisation, not another religion. It's a small difference, but it's there.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Technically Ninjutsu would be more of a way of life rather than a religion per se. IMO anyway. You aren't worshiping anyone or anything (I hope) but rather accepting the philosophies as a base to live by.

Personally I believe the arts should be secular (separate from religion) just the same as politics, education etc as it can and most probably will detract from the teachings to approach it with pre-determined or conflicted mindsets. That's just my take on it though and may not sit well with everyone.

Ninjutsu does contain many shinto elements.
Do you have a kamidana in your dojo? Do you recite the ninja seishin? Those are the first things that spring to mind.

 

[dbell]

For many people religion is not separate from the other things in their lives though so it's impossible to separate their faith from their activities. Their whole lives are inbued with their faith and whatever they do during a day must be in the spirit of their faith. I think this separating parts of a human life into boxes is a modern Western possibly Christian American thing. Not a pop at America btw but a reflection of their wish to have religion separated from the State which reflects their beginning as a State.

I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).

 

[Supra Vijai]

I would have to agree with you Tez, there should be no separation from ones faith and the rest of their life activeties, they should be closely tied to each other, or in most cases, they are truly not following their faith (at least in the case of the Jewish faith, the Christian Faith, and the Muslim faiths).

As mentioned in the post by Sensei Parker, I think upbringing has a notable influence on thinking patterns. I'm of Indian origin raised with Eastern philosophies (Hinduism to be exact). The difference there is that at least within my own family, being multi-theistic is encouraged and supported and from a young age I was raised of the opinion that you should do the right thing because it's right, not because of any religious consequence you may face. With that in mind, while religion has it's place - and I'm not implying faith isn't important by any means - my personal approach is to remove it from most day to day activities. Again, these are purely my own beliefs. With regards to why I then posted it, I misread the original post I'm afraid and took it to mean that Bujinkan were trying to become their own religion, rather than just an organisation.

Bruno, no I'm afraid I don't know the ninja seishin or the kamidana...

 

[Hollywood1340]

Are we talking YOUR Christianity or mine? Because I don't think they're the same here.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Supra,

The Kamidana is a shrine to the Kami of the Dojo and the Ryu-ha, typically with portraits of the Master Instructors/Founder, depending on the system itself. Most Aikido Dojo have a portrait of Ueshiba, for instance. We, as you know, don't have one.

The Ninja Seishin is a poem that is said to have been written by Takamatsu Sensei, which gives the values for studying the art, and is recited in Genbukan classes (although not any other organisations, as far as I am aware). It is recited in Japanese. Here is a link to the poem itself: http://www.shinjindojo.co.uk/resources/ninjaSeishin.asp

You may notice that that is where Kajowaraku gets his screen name from, I believe....

Are we talking YOUR Christianity or mine? Because I don't think they're the same here.

As I said, Hollywood1340, Western religions focus on an individual's relationship with the Divine, so it obviously won't be the same for anyone else. Out of interest, was this in reference to the OP, or the discussion as it continued?