Building a strong foundation

[Touch Of Death]

isn't kata for teaching stances and movement?

Yes.

 

[JR 137]

I use it for training transitions and control. I think most people/systems include stance training in their kata work. I do some stance focus in the short kata (single-technique forms), but I don't like folks focusing on the stances so much in the long-form kata. Those are for them to develop movement.

Not to start yet another kata debate, but shouldn't kata be all about learning/developing/teaching movement? Some people get hung up on the end of each movement, or pose, if you will. While I think that part's important, as if things are in the wrong places the student probably has the wrong technique and/or idea of what it means, how the student got to that position is more important IMO.

Take the first count of the most basic kata I know, Taikyoku 1...
Turn left 90 degrees into forward leaning stance, left hand low block.

The student looking, sliding the feet, and performing the block with two hands (and performing the block correctly), and timing it altogether is far more important than what it looks like when he/she has finished the count. I look at the finished part of the count as more of a pose than anything else. If getting from point A to point B isn't done right, the bunkai of the technique won't work the way it's supposed to.

I think too many people get hung up on the pose at the end of the count rather than how they got into it. What the pose looks like is the most irrelevant part IMO. It would be like watching a baseball pitcher and only analyzing where his hands and feet ended after the follow-through rather than analyzing the entire pitch from the preparatory phase through execution and recovery phases.

Sorry, I guess that's my kinesiology classes speaking.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Not to start yet another kata debate, but shouldn't kata be all about learning/developing/teaching movement? Some people get hung up on the end of each movement, or pose, if you will. While I think that part's important, as if things are in the wrong places the student probably has the wrong technique and/or idea of what it means, how the student got to that position is more important IMO.

Take the first count of the most basic kata I know, Taikyoku 1...
Turn left 90 degrees into forward leaning stance, left hand low block.

The student looking, sliding the feet, and performing the block with two hands (and performing the block correctly), and timing it altogether is far more important than what it looks like when he/she has finished the count. I look at the finished part of the count as more of a pose than anything else. If getting from point A to point B isn't done right, the bunkai of the technique won't work the way it's supposed to.

I think too many people get hung up on the pose at the end of the count rather than how they got into it. What the pose looks like is the most irrelevant part IMO. It would be like watching a baseball pitcher and only analyzing where his hands and feet ended after the follow-through rather than analyzing the entire pitch from the preparatory phase through execution and recovery phases.

Sorry, I guess that's my kinesiology classes speaking.

I love it when people do that....

"I don't mean to start a debate on this highly polarising topic, but I'm going to do it anyway"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not to start yet another kata debate, but shouldn't kata be all about learning/developing/teaching movement? Some people get hung up on the end of each movement, or pose, if you will. While I think that part's important, as if things are in the wrong places the student probably has the wrong technique and/or idea of what it means, how the student got to that position is more important IMO.

Take the first count of the most basic kata I know, Taikyoku 1...
Turn left 90 degrees into forward leaning stance, left hand low block.

The student looking, sliding the feet, and performing the block with two hands (and performing the block correctly), and timing it altogether is far more important than what it looks like when he/she has finished the count. I look at the finished part of the count as more of a pose than anything else. If getting from point A to point B isn't done right, the bunkai of the technique won't work the way it's supposed to.

I think too many people get hung up on the pose at the end of the count rather than how they got into it. What the pose looks like is the most irrelevant part IMO. It would be like watching a baseball pitcher and only analyzing where his hands and feet ended after the follow-through rather than analyzing the entire pitch from the preparatory phase through execution and recovery phases.

Sorry, I guess that's my kinesiology classes speaking.

Actually, I rant about this to my students on a regular basis. They want to know what the angles should be, and where their feet should end up. I tel them to focus on the trchnique, and how to use it against the imaginary attack. If their feet are in the wrong place, that's not their feet's fault. Feet go where they are needed. Get the movement and technique right, and I don't really care about the stance or finishing angle (because they will be appropriate to the technique).

 

[jobo]

Actually, I rant about this to my students on a regular basis. They want to know what the angles should be, and where their feet should end up. I tel them to focus on the trchnique, and how to use it against the imaginary attack. If their feet are in the wrong place, that's not their feet's fault. Feet go where they are needed. Get the movement and technique right, and I don't really care about the stance or finishing angle (because they will be appropriate to the technique).

I've changed my mind on kata, I at first thought it silly and and a waste of time, now I see it as a sure fire way of developing motor skills and to a lessor extent muscle development .

if you do the movements very very slowly using maximum contraction, its a very good way of increasing strengh

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've changed my mind on kata, I at first thought it silly and and a waste of time, now I see it as a sure fire way of developing motor skills and to a lessor extent muscle development .

if you do the movements very very slowly using maximum contraction, its a very good way of increasing strengh

I work a grave shift, and I dance around that shop, all the time. People should just do forms, when they are bored, or if they are not bored.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've changed my mind on kata, I at first thought it silly and and a waste of time, now I see it as a sure fire way of developing motor skills and to a lessor extent muscle development .

if you do the movements very very slowly using maximum contraction, its a very good way of increasing strengh

I've encouraged students to practice them very, very slowly (without the maximum contraction) for balance development. So far, only one has taken up that suggestion (I don't spend a lot of class time on long kata). I need to try ours out with contraction to see how they feel. That might be something for me to work with, and maybe some advanced students.

 

[JR 137]

I've encouraged students to practice them very, very slowly (without the maximum contraction) for balance development. So far, only one has taken up that suggestion (I don't spend a lot of class time on long kata). I need to try ours out with contraction to see how they feel. That might be something for me to work with, and maybe some advanced students.

Sanchin kata may inspire you...

We do this one at our dojo. We're supposed to have maximal tension, and we don't breathe as loud. During the kata, we'll occasionally have a higher rank pushing and pulling us from different directions, and they'll grab our arms and resist our movement. It teaches quite a few things.

 

[drop bear]

I've changed my mind on kata, I at first thought it silly and and a waste of time, now I see it as a sure fire way of developing motor skills and to a lessor extent muscle development .

if you do the movements very very slowly using maximum contraction, its a very good way of increasing strengh

Yeah. It can be used in the same way as animal walks.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Yes.

yap

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sanchin kata may inspire you...

We do this one at our dojo. We're supposed to have maximal tension, and we don't breathe as loud. During the kata, we'll occasionally have a higher rank pushing and pulling us from different directions, and they'll grab our arms and resist our movement. It teaches quite a few things.

I had a training partner years ago who taught me some of this technique. It may have actually been part of that very kata we worked with. I need to look for my notes on that.

 

[wingchun100]

I think the trick is to mix things into the perfect blend, or the best blend that you can. I agree with Photon about the importance of stances, although I would say "teach hand techniques next" because in Wing Chun, there are more upper than lower body attacks.

However, I agree with other sentiments that people would get bored. At the previous Wing Chun school I attended, he eliminated self-defense applications and made it so class was all forms...unless you were advanced enough to do chi sao. People would be working on section 1 of Sil Lum Tao for weeks and maybe even sometimes months. As Drop Bear said, it got to be a grind. Not everyone is resilient/patient enough to wait to move on to the next thing.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Sanchin kata may inspire you...

We do this one at our dojo. We're supposed to have maximal tension, and we don't breathe as loud. During the kata, we'll occasionally have a higher rank pushing and pulling us from different directions, and they'll grab our arms and resist our movement. It teaches quite a few things.

We have a similar form called San Zhan which is a conditioning form (I'm told that Sanchin was developed from San Zhan hence the similarities). When done correctly it gives you a surprisingly good workout. Some of the toughest sessions I've done have been where we have spent an hour just doing this form.

 

[Tez3]

Kata is useful for a number of things, you can take out of it what you need. Perhaps that's why they were 'invented' .

 

[oftheherd1]

What I mean is on a students first day I would just teach stances and movement. On their second day I would review stances and movement and then introduce kicks. On their third day I would introduce hand techniques. All the kicks and hand techniques would obviously be done from stances so I wouldn't be separating stances from kicks and hand strikes. I've never taught as a primary instructor but I have taught many students as an assistant instructor.

Talking about "first days" it makes more sense. But frankly, I think trying to do all that in the first three lessons may be a little fast. When I studied TKD, there was indeed emphasis on stances. I was taught stances for a long time, and I didn't stop learning stances just because I learned kicking and punching. When the punching, kicking and kata came in to it I don't recall, since there was such an emphasis on correct stance for balance and moving. Having to go up and down the do jang making sure one's feet stay on the tiles at the same place, is hard to forget when you are doing it for an entire lesson, maybe more. But when I began learning other things, I did have proper stance.

Let's keep in mind we are all teaching different arts, in different places, with different people, for different reasons. Ain't no way we will all teach the same thing, or in the same order.

I don't have a set "first day" set of techniques. It depends on the group, if it is a group, or on the person.
But it usually consists of stance (what I consider a proper stance, not necessarily what you use in your school) moving forward, back sideways and with accompanying angles, a jab, a straight punch with the rear hand (either hand) and a front kick.

The only three things I teach, guaranteed on that first day, is getting up fast, undivided attention and dojo protocol.

I agree on what to emphasize first, but might add how to put on the uniform and tie their belt if they didn't already have a more senior student show them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree on what to emphasize first, but might add how to put on the uniform and tie their belt if they didn't already have a more senior student show them.

First day, my students are only in uniform if they already owned one. Either way, there won't likely be a need to teach them to put one on. Most of my folks buy theirs after a few weeks (I require it after about 8 weeks - when they transition to the formal curriculum).

 

[oftheherd1]

First day, my students are only in uniform if they already owned one. Either way, there won't likely be a need to teach them to put one on. Most of my folks buy theirs after a few weeks (I require it after about 8 weeks - when they transition to the formal curriculum).

Not a bad way to do things at all, but it seems many schools keep uniforms on had and expect new students to buy on right away.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not a bad way to do things at all, but it seems many schools keep uniforms on had and expect new students to buy on right away.

Most do. I think all the schools in NGA do, at least all those I'm aware of. Probably not those who don't have their own school, though. For me, I offer a free first class, and it wouldn't make sense for folks to have to buy a gi to try out the class, so even if I had the storage space to keep a few on hand, I'd still have folks starting out in street clothes.

 

[Buka]

Sanchin kata may inspire you...

We do this one at our dojo. We're supposed to have maximal tension, and we don't breathe as loud. During the kata, we'll occasionally have a higher rank pushing and pulling us from different directions, and they'll grab our arms and resist our movement. It teaches quite a few things.

As someone who hasn't done a Kata in a long time - that's the one I really liked. Kind of miss it.