Bruce Tegner

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From Danjo: ""One question was all I really wanted to know: Did Bruce Tegner really train in Karate, or did he call his Judo training Karate and say that it was all the same thing?

To me "A punch is only a punch, and a kick is only a kick" is the most misunderstood phrase of Bruce Lee's out there. Even he didn't really believe that all kicks and punches were the same. He practiced many punches and kicks and called them by different names. But any way you look at it, no one really thinks that if you get rank in one art that involves kicking and punching, it's just the same as any other art that involves kicking and punching. This seems to be the argument of jukado1.""
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Danjo, Let me ask you, What is your definition of a karate style ?? In the 60's and 70's the big thing was kata, Very few styles were teaching the flying spinning over hand reverse punch, And if you know much of the Japanese karate of the era there were just a few basic stances, Do you really think that anybody does not know a front stance ?, What about a horse stance ?, In the day there was no gymnastics, There was punch, Kick, Throw, Lock, Choke and defend against attacks, Or one steps, Do you know these ? What makes you think that they are so difficult that others don't know them ?, Belt tests are about repeating the moves that you are shown, And even though Bruce was not in a competition shape he still had 25+ years of martial arts training, He knew theory of fighting, So what would be so hard about studying tapes and learning the way somebody wanted to see something ?. And as far as your bodyguard Twin Fist, Go sit in the corner and let the adults talk in peace.
 
I would like to apologise, I answered this question on the kenpo thread but it was one of the posts that got gone, Did Bruce Tegner train in karate ?, Both of Bruce's parents were black belts and trained out of the Chicago judo club, At that time one of the premier clubs in the country, Whenever visiting martial artists were in this country this is one of the clubs they would visit, And when they came they would workout and teach, Bruce trained in all of the Japanese arts of the day, Some days he would do both judo and karate and weapons class the same day, While he was training he had 2 things he emphasised, Competition judo, And real fighting/self defense, He also traveled around the country to train with anyone who would train him, He spent time in Canada to study savate, BUT at that time the only rank he worked toward was in judo, After he won the California state judo championship in about1947, He was promoted to 2nd dan judo, he quit competition and worked on teaching and promoting judo and martial arts for the average person, And only after the shukokai came to him did he train to get his 5Th dan, Was it honorary, Yes to the extent he was not in competition shape and he did NOT do everything exactly the same as did the shukokai, He was awarded rank/earned rank to promote the shukokai.
 
Hello,

This thread has been a bit interesting to say the least. I think some of the misunderstanding is due, in part, to all the missing posts of late. Oh well. That stuff happens...

Bottom line, for me...
Who cares where Bruce Tegner got his training, or what rank he was given, bought, aquired, stole, earned or otherwise...?
The fact is, he did as much, if not more then anyone, for the martial arts in this country at the time of their infancy.
I bet he has done more to promote study, students and training then most IF NOT ALL of the other seniors and "leaders" out there... So what if he was only a white belt? (which I, personally, do not believe) He still did more then most of the rank and file "masters" and "grand masters", etc...

Let's just say he was better then most, as good as many and not as skilled as some, and let it go. His written work was an inspiration to many thousands of students, me included.

And, forgive me I mean no personal offense to anyone... But those who are not willing to give their real names when asked, should not be stirring the pot, or calling B.S. on others... Unless you have a real name, and are willing to share freely, then you are just a "keyboard warrior", in my, and many others opinion.

My respect goes out to those open and honest participants out there.
End of rant... :)

Thank you,
Milt G.

In edit I will include my full name; Milt Guinette
 
all of that may very well be true, but the TRUTH is never a bad thing and is NEVER irrelevant

John Tygart
4th Dan
American TKD
Owner and Head Instructor
Twin Fist Martial Arts
Nacogdoches Tx
75961
936-569-0786
 
Twin Fist said:
all of that may very well be true, but the TRUTH is never a bad thing and is NEVER irrelevant

John Tygart
4th Dan
American TKD
Owner and Head Instructor
Twin Fist Martial Arts
Nacogdoches Tx
75961
936-569-0786
Click to expand...

Hello,
Thank you, Sir...!

Milt G.
 
jukado1 said:
From Danjo: ""One question was all I really wanted to know: Did Bruce Tegner really train in Karate, or did he call his Judo training Karate and say that it was all the same thing?

To me "A punch is only a punch, and a kick is only a kick" is the most misunderstood phrase of Bruce Lee's out there. Even he didn't really believe that all kicks and punches were the same. He practiced many punches and kicks and called them by different names. But any way you look at it, no one really thinks that if you get rank in one art that involves kicking and punching, it's just the same as any other art that involves kicking and punching. This seems to be the argument of jukado1.""
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Danjo, Let me ask you, What is your definition of a karate style ?? In the 60's and 70's the big thing was kata, Very few styles were teaching the flying spinning over hand reverse punch, And if you know much of the Japanese karate of the era there were just a few basic stances, Do you really think that anybody does not know a front stance ?, What about a horse stance ?, In the day there was no gymnastics, There was punch, Kick, Throw, Lock, Choke and defend against attacks, Or one steps, Do you know these ? What makes you think that they are so difficult that others don't know them ?, Belt tests are about repeating the moves that you are shown, And even though Bruce was not in a competition shape he still had 25+ years of martial arts training, He knew theory of fighting, So what would be so hard about studying tapes and learning the way somebody wanted to see something ?. And as far as your bodyguard Twin Fist, Go sit in the corner and let the adults talk in peace.
Click to expand...

Well, let's see. I have a brown belt in Shotokan and one in Shaolin Kempo. I have a 2nd Black in Kajukenbo Original Method (or "Old Hard Style" as some call it). None of them have the acrobatic stuff you've referred to, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Also, I know enough to know that none of them are like each other enough to allow me to claim rank in one just because I had a certain rank in another. Do they all have punches and kicks? Yes. Are they the same? No.

You tend to obfuscate when you say that Tegner had years of martial arts training. I know he did. But was it in the Karate style that he claimed rank in?

You mention that he wasn't in "competition shape". I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say with that unless you view all karate as a sport. There are many legitimate black belts in karate that do not compete and are not in "competition shape". It doesn't make their rank honorary, so why would that make Tegner's honorary?

Like others here, I too admit that Tegner brought the martial arts to the masses in a way that no one else did. My first martial arts experience was doing moves out of his self defense book with my uncle and brother on the front lawn. I have at least 6 of his books on my shelf currently, and have had many more than that over the years, so I'm not trying to discredit his martial art contributions, but rather get to the root of why some considered him a fraud. If he taught Karate when he never really trained in it (aside from the guys that would swing by his parent's house from time to time as a kid), then you can see why other Karateka of his day had problems with his claims no?
 
As I have never heard of Bruce Tegner did a little digging around, what I found was that people all over the place credit him with wakening their interest in the martial arts and that he was well thought of by a great many people. Now whether his belts were from a 'genuine' organisation or not....and the defininition of genuine could well take us into another argument..... it really seems irrelevant as the gentleman is deceased and cannot speak up for himself.
Reading posts, information, Wiki and even the site that shan't be named on him it seems that for many his name brought back good memories of reading his books, practising the moves with dads, mates, brothers etc. Even the B site had posters with fond memories of his books and their childhoods.
Can we not leave it at that now and leave this acrimonious 'discussion' to fade on it's own. Let sleeping dogs lie, there's little point in bringing up things that the person named can't defend himself against. Let his detractors sit in their righteousness and his supporters enjoy their memories.
 
Wow! Been offline a few days due to work, but I can see this thread blew up pretty quick. Given that this is a hot topic, its probably best to take the advice of the mod notes that are in place.

That being said, I'll say this....I don't know much, if anything at all, about the man in question, just what I've been reading here and the small bit of looking I did online. Is he legit? Is he a fake? Don't know, but as its been said, I do think that before anyone says that he is/isn't, some proven facts should be listed.

As far as getting rank without actually training under a live teacher...well, a search of my past posts, should reveal my thoughts on that. I'm not a fan of distance learning, I'm not a fan of people who slap on rank to make others, usually ones that dont know any better, go "ohh and ahh" because they see somone wearing a high rank. I'm not a fan of those who ask to be promoted or demand that they should. Not a fan of kissing *** to get a promotion. I'm not really a fan of honorary ranks either. Hey, if someone wants to give someone recognition for something they did, thats fine and dandy, but, I do feel that the person getting this honorary award, should let it be known that its just that...honorary, and not something that they actually earned with that hard work.

IMHO, I think that nowadays, way too many people put such a value on the high rank, without having much thought for the blood, sweat and tears that should be going into it as well.

Mike
 
From Tez3:
""Can we not leave it at that now and leave this acrimonious 'discussion' to fade on it's own. Let sleeping dogs lie, there's little point in bringing up things that the person named can't defend himself against. Let his detractors sit in their righteousness and his supporters enjoy their memories.""

Taz3, We could, But then the same wrong information will continue to be spread, Most of these attacks on Bruce, Or on most other martial artists are put out by those with nothing but the words of some other non knowing person, Case in point, I also post on a Bruce Lee/JKD board, And on that board we have somebody with NO knowledge of Bruce Lee or JKD except from the movies/TV and what he reads on the Internet, This individual does have a background in karate from a backward part of the world, But he has, And continuously puts himself out as an authority on Bruce Lee, He continuously states that Joe Lewis does not know or understand Bruce Lee's JKD, While he does, Now I could sit back and allow this to be said, Except it is false, Joe Lewis learned from Bruce Lee for a year and a half, During a part of this time I was training with Joe, Now if nobody says anything how will beginners know that just maybe they can learn something from Joe Lewis, I mean who would you believe, Somebody who actually trained with and broke bread with Bruce Lee, Or somebody who has seen every movie Bruce Lee made, If I tell a blind man that the ocean is RED how will he know the truth unless someone tells him.
So my answer is no.
 
Danjo: Since I'm not an intellectual I don't know how else to explain martial arts to you, Bruce was asked to join the Shukokai to help them have an influence in the U.S. Bruce knew martial arts, Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,) Bruce had been training in karate with Meany Japanese instructors for Meany years, The Shukokai sent him their requirements for rank with them, Then they sent a group of their people to test Bruce on their requirements, Bruce passed, He showed them that he had the skill and the KNOWLEDGE to deserve in their eyes a 5Th degree black belt, By not in competition shape I mean Bruce was not doing the 500 push ups and sit ups a day he had done while he was training for judo competition, And as far as my question about style, While your styles are different, Do you not believe the knowledge from one style helped you to shortcut your training in another ?

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, I'm outta here.
 
jukado1 said:
Danjo: Since I'm not an intellectual I don't know how else to explain martial arts to you, Bruce was asked to join the Shukokai to help them have an influence in the U.S. Bruce knew martial arts, Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,) Bruce had been training in karate with Meany Japanese instructors for Meany years, The Shukokai sent him their requirements for rank with them, Then they sent a group of their people to test Bruce on their requirements, Bruce passed, He showed them that he had the skill and the KNOWLEDGE to deserve in their eyes a 5Th degree black belt, By not in competition shape I mean Bruce was not doing the 500 push ups and sit ups a day he had done while he was training for judo competition, And as far as my question about style, While your styles are different, Do you not believe the knowledge from one style helped you to shortcut your training in another ?

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, I'm outta here.
Click to expand...

Just so I'm reading this right. I may be wrong, but this seems the equivilant of distance learning. Did the people who came to see Bruce do any training with him, other than to view his progression on what they had sent him?
 
MJS: Sorry but your not reading this right, Bruce had been studying and learning martial arts and unarmed and armed combat since childhood, He had been working with Meany styles of the fighting arts, Primarily of the Japanese arts, But he had also gone out of his way to study everything that was related to fighting/martial arts fighting, Meany of those he had worked with were KARATE teachers, BUT Bruce did not worry about belts, The only belt he was interested in was for judo, HE KNEW KARATE, In the 60's your style was the Kata's you did, Bruce knew and did kata's, Meany were very similar to what the Shukokai wanted, So all that was needed was to adjust the form to their way. Again Bruce did not ask for rank, The Shukokai wanted to rank him so as to get a presence in the U.S.
 
Jukado, I see where you are coming from but as someone who has no knowledge of you either I have no way of telling what you are posting is the truth either, this discussion has got so that people are posting insults at each other, childish ones at that so frankly if it's going to carry on that that the subject is better closed. If you can't post without also popping in snide comments how are we to take your posts seriously?
Take your example from MJS, a reasoned thought out post made without sniping.
Post your 'truth' by all means, be prepared to have people question it and answer without acrimony if you want to be taken seriously and not have the thread locked down.
Reading something designed to persuade me you are right then coming across comments like "Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,)" whichis totally uncalled for and beneath you, doesn't do much to persuade me of your integrity.

Have the courage of your convictions and post a proper defence so we can make our own minds up without having to wade through childish nonsense.
 
jukado1 said:
MJS: Sorry but your not reading this right, Bruce had been studying and learning martial arts and unarmed and armed combat since childhood, He had been working with Meany styles of the fighting arts, Primarily of the Japanese arts, But he had also gone out of his way to study everything that was related to fighting/martial arts fighting, Meany of those he had worked with were KARATE teachers, BUT Bruce did not worry about belts, The only belt he was interested in was for judo, HE KNEW KARATE, In the 60's your style was the Kata's you did, Bruce knew and did kata's, Meany were very similar to what the Shukokai wanted, So all that was needed was to adjust the form to their way. Again Bruce did not ask for rank, The Shukokai wanted to rank him so as to get a presence in the U.S.
Click to expand...

Well, if I'm reading correctly, this seems to be the very subject...whether or not Bruce actually has any varifiable training. You're claiming he does, others are claiming he does not. I don't know the man, so I am simply asking.
 
Taz3: The only reason I post on forums at all is due to the fact I can no longer do martial arts, I have allowed my body to turn in to a large piece of cockroach excrement, So on the Internet I can at least "talk" martial arts and fighting, Normally I only post if the subject is interesting and I can add to the conversation, But on occasion I see things that are so wrong that I can't and won't let them go, If you remember what started this was Danjo saying that Bruce Tegner went bagging to the Shukokai for rank, That's not true, They came to him, And with danjo this is a repeat, He posted the same story on the San Jose kenpo website 2 years ago, And this is really a situation I can't win, I mean how can you prove you don't beat your wife, This is what this is, But its hard for an outsider like me to straighten out the insiders on the board, And as far as twin fist, He has called both my instructor and myself fakes, I did not see anybody taking up for me, If somebody has a reference, Has knowledge they have the right to an opinion, But somebody like this clown who has never seen Bruce Tegner and has no knowledge of me and what I can do says that I think I have a right to get mad, And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting, so I'll take a nap and come back and see if I've done enough to be banned.
 
jukado1 said:
And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting,
Click to expand...

you know what, i am gonna walk away from this old dude, he isnt worth it
 
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