Bruce Lee.. Overrated?

[Doc]

yes, no?

thoughts, ideas?


My personal take on Bruce Lee is that he was a Martial Artist first, then an actor. I don't think he is "the best ever" and I don't think any of his ideas were as revolutionary as some are made to believe. Good martial artist, yes. without a doubt. As good as his hype, probably not.

i'd say he is overrated.

Well like anything else it would depend upon whom you ask, and where the opinion came from. Bruce was a good martial artist, and an extremely gifted athlete. (Yes I knew him) Yet with all of his physical gifts and skill, he was a young kid at the time of his famous demo at the IKC with only a few years of training under a formal teacher, and the bulk on his own after he moved to Seattle and began college. According to several people I respect, Sea Oh Choi, Wally Jay and Ed Parker Sr. yes he was gifted but not very knowledgeable in the depths of the arts.

This would seem to be correct based on his training background and years in the art(s). Clearly Bruce was on a personal quest to learn everything he could from as many sources as he could find. (The efficacy of this approach is best left for another discussion).

In the general American Culture of Martial Arts Infancy Bruce was awesome in 1964. American martial Arts at the time was in a very primitive state, (and still is; more information but less knowledge), being primarily Japanese/Okinawan competition based however, among the real Chinese Masters he was, in many cases, expounding on what would be considered basic knowledge in the Chinese Arts. (Which to this day are still not a part of mainstream American Martial Arts).

Clearly Bruce acquired more knowledge as time went on, picking the Brain of Ed Parker, learning to grapple from Gene LeBell, and kicks from Sea Oh Choi, but no matter how much he tried, he was still behind the curve because of his short life experience in any art. Given time, he woud have gotten there, no doubt. And although his charisma and the ability to market and showcase himself in film and TV was an assest to all, the truth is he was just a really talented, gifted, and intelligent kid.

I tell you what i would have liked to have seen. I would have loved to see Bruce enter the boxing ranks, and compete professionally at his weight. I think he would have been pretty good. But fortunately for all of us, Bruce was too smart for that.

 

[K' Evans]

Just my own opinion. I don't claim to be a fan of Bruce Lee, which I am frequently asked when other people find out that I am undertaking JKD. The reason being that I don't personally idolise him in a brainless manner, on the other hand, I do respect him a great deal and do think of him as a great martial artist (not necessarily the best as that's impossible to judge). I disagree that he thinks of himself (or should be thought of) as an actor first, cos he has always stated everything he knows about life and philosophy and himself stems from martial arts.

I usually conduct this test on lay ppl who are puzzled abt Bruce Lee's fame. I ask if they are familiar with Tiger Woods and if they know what is so great about him. Usually, they don't since they don't play golf. So I explain that unless you are familiar with the world of martial arts, you can't understand what's so significant about Bruce. And I think this really shows because Bruce was/is a tremendously talented and studious martial artist, professional actor or not. if you read about his incredible feats of strength, and the amount of training he puts in, you would have no doubt that not everyone, even if given the same time, effort and flexibility, can come up with the same achievements.

The other characteristic trait I respect in Bruce is that he was fiercely independent (i.e. anti-establishment) and not just for the sake of being a rebel. Even if he doesn't understand every single historical detail of the world of martial arts, he was clearly a researcher and a critical thinker/scholar/philosopher about the martial arts. I think that puts him up a level higher than most martial artists, who may practice their respective styles very well, but never gave it the same degree of thought and critical analysis as Bruce did. You don't have to agree with everything that Bruce said (and I personally think he didn't live up to everything he wrote) but there's no doubt that he was not just concerned about achieving physical greatness but also exercising his mental faculties.

There's a famous quote about Bruce which I think sorta sums up my thoughts. It was spoken by Doug Palmer (according to Wikiquote): "It's not that other martial artists were not good. It's just that this guy was great."

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

strange, i was thingking about this last night whilst reading a bruce lee biography.

i think he is over rated because of general society......this may not be the case over in ameirca but here in england about 99.9% of people have heard of bruce lee and know at least that he "did fung fu". he was a good martial artist but i think that it was the making of jeet kune do that set it all off......people saw his films.......knew he made a martial art.......they assume hes the best bacause of those 2 reasons and because of his popularity. most of these people have no education in martial arts and base thier opinions on stupid reasons like his movies, when in actual fact they have never seen him fight in real life and dont really know how good a fighter he is

this is why i believe he is overated.........people that dont know what they are talking about going along with the majority (the majority also dont know what thay are talkin about)


this has probably already been said lol


i have the same opinion of the shaolin monks...not as poular here but the people that do know of them also know how popular they are around the rest of the world. people see thier dvd (wheel of life, see it if you have the oportunity!) and see that they can do some amazing stunts and have good skill but they have never seen them fight. they assume that they could beat anyone up just becasue of some rehersed stunts that probably wouldnt work in a real fight.

i would like to see a shaolin monk or bruce lee in the octogan ;D


just my opinion

 

[Josh]

And you base this on what...

my own opinions. there is no right or wrong answer to the question

 

[Adept]

Having watched a lot of his movies, and read a lot of his books I think there can be no doubt that Bruce was a very talented athlete, with a work ethic that puts most people (in all walks of life) to shame. Watching him move on film is like magic.

To me, basically, when you get right down to it he said: "Don't mindlessly listen to your instructors. Find out what works for you, and then do that."

Now, he might not have been the first to say it (and certainly wasn't the last) but I think he said it at the right time (during the formative years of MA in the west) to the right people, and in the right way.

He certainly had more impact on my decision to start the martial arts than anyone else.

 

[Josh]

i would like to see a shaolin monk or bruce lee in the octogan ;D


just my opinion

and a valid one at that. I don't have a problem with Bruce lee, I have a problem with people that give him God status.

 

[James Kovacich]

my own opinions. there is no right or wrong answer to the question

opinions from where?

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

and a valid one at that. I don't have a problem with Bruce lee, I have a problem with people that give him God status.

just the point i was tryin to make, thanks!

 

[James Kovacich]

Well like anything else it would depend upon whom you ask, and where the opinion came from. Bruce was a good martial artist, and an extremely gifted athlete. (Yes I knew him) Yet with all of his physical gifts and skill, he was a young kid at the time of his famous demo at the IKC with only a few years of training under a formal teacher, and the bulk on his own after he moved to Seattle and began college. According to several people I respect, Sea Oh Choi, Wally Jay and Ed Parker Sr. yes he was gifted but not very knowledgeable in the depths of the arts.

This would seem to be correct based on his training background and years in the art(s). Clearly Bruce was on a personal quest to learn everything he could from as many sources as he could find. (The efficacy of this approach is best left for another discussion).

In the general American Culture of Martial Arts Infancy Bruce was awesome in 1964. American martial Arts at the time was in a very primitive state, (and still is; more information but less knowledge), being primarily Japanese/Okinawan competition based however, among the real Chinese Masters he was, in many cases, expounding on what would be considered basic knowledge in the Chinese Arts. (Which to this day are still not a part of mainstream American Martial Arts).

Clearly Bruce acquired more knowledge as time went on, picking the Brain of Ed Parker, learning to grapple from Gene LeBell, and kicks from Sea Oh Choi, but no matter how much he tried, he was still behind the curve because of his short life experience in any art. Given time, he woud have gotten there, no doubt. And although his charisma and the ability to market and showcase himself in film and TV was an assest to all, the truth is he was just a really talented, gifted, and intelligent kid.

I tell you what i would have liked to have seen. I would have loved to see Bruce enter the boxing ranks, and compete professionally at his weight. I think he would have been pretty good. But fortunately for all of us, Bruce was too smart for that.

Well if you want to do the math, Ed Parker only had a few years TIG before going out on his own. When Bruce and Ed met, the bulk of Ed's training came from sources other than Chow. That is what Bruce did too except Bruce had no choice, he was in a new country.

At the time Bruce started Wing Chun in 1954 I don't think that Mr. Parker had his black yet. Before Bruce went out on his own (because he came to America) he had "approximately" 5 years in, about 1/2 of the time for instructorship in those days.

I'm guessing that Mr. Parker had no more than 5 years or less "training time," than Bruce and that was "on their own" training. If Bruce "was still behind the curve" then why did some of Mr. Parkers black belts quit to train under Bruce? I recall Jerry Poteet, Larry Hartsell, Dan Inosanto and Steve Golden. All who are still true to Bruce Lees Jeet Kune Do. Do you recall who the others were that Quit Mr. Parker to go train with Bruce?

 

[Xue Sheng]

and a valid one at that. I don't have a problem with Bruce lee, I have a problem with people that give him God status.

God status.... who is giving him God status?

Meaning who in the martial arts world

Bruce Lee was an amazing and dedicated martial artist that in my opinion deserves the same respect any other martial artist of that caliber deserves and there are several in that category.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Look at the "state" of martial arts when Bruce was alive and look at how martial arts were executed "on average" back then.

Your keyword was "fans and fans are wannabes and "not in the know." Why are you listening to them?

I agree with Akja. How can someone be overrated when they have single handedly revolutionized the Martial Arts world to the degree Bruce did? Its amazing how people judge Bruce then, based on events now... after Bruce's death. Bruce was exceptional for his time. And until I see someone revolutionize the arts away from the current paradigm that is Martial Arts, only THEN will I consider them to be considerable to Lee. This goes not to say that Lee was the absolute, but based on speed alone... even today, I haven't seen many that matched his caliber.

I can never understand the need for people to take credit away from someone so great.

 

[curious]

Thanks to my stepfather I ended up emersed in the life of Bruce Lee. As I was growing up I had to watch each and every movie Bruce Lee ever made. My house was the never ending Bruce Lee marathon. I had to walk around in a house full of Bruce Lee stuff. I had to listen to every topic there was about Bruce Lee. I also had to wait in the car while my stepfather went to JKD classes (no kids allowed back then). During my teenage years, believe me when I say I seriously thought Bruce Lee was and always will be overrated. I felt like if I had to listen to anything Bruce Lee I was going to puke. Look up the word FANATIC and OBSESSIVE in the dictionary and you will see a picture of my stepfather kissing a picture of Bruce Lee. To get back on topic with the thread I have to say I agree with the following:

The very fact that this post was created more than 30 years after his death demonstrates his power over the martial arts community. This site might not exist without his charismatic effect on Martial arts in the united states.

and...

How can someone be overrated when they have single handedly revolutionized the Martial Arts world to the degree Bruce did? Its amazing how people judge Bruce then, based on events now... after Bruce's death. Bruce was exceptional for his time.

 

[Josh]

opinions from where?

Based on my thoughts, It's strictly a feeling I get. Nothing more to it.

 

[Josh]

God status.... who is giving him God status?

Meaning who in the martial arts world

Bruce Lee was an amazing and dedicated martial artist that in my opinion deserves the same respect any other martial artist of that caliber deserves and there are several in that category.

I'm not saying he was not amazing. But I know of people personally that believe him to be the end all of martial arts. That's what I meant by "God status" there are literally Martial Artists that equate Bruce Lee with perfection in the Martial Arts. Now, I don't blame that on Lee. I'm not taking away from his greatness. I'm just trying to be reasonable. He isn't the end all to Martial Arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

He isn't the end all to Martial Arts.

WHAT!!!! :cuss:


:uhyeah: Just kidding.

Seriously, I don't think he is either and if you read anything he wrote or what some of the more reputable sources have written about him I don't think he though he was either. He thought he was good, and he was right, but I doubt he thought he was the epitome of martial arts.

EDIT:

But I do agree there are those out there that deify Bruce Lee and many of those don’t really train real martial arts much or are new to the game.

But with that said I feel I should also say Bruce Lee was a damn good martial artist

 

[James Kovacich]

Based on my thoughts, It's strictly a feeling I get. Nothing more to it.

What styles and who's in your lineage so we can check if their were any "charismatic" charactors in it?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with Akja. How can someone be overrated when they have single handedly revolutionized the Martial Arts world to the degree Bruce did? Its amazing how people judge Bruce then, based on events now... after Bruce's death. Bruce was exceptional for his time. And until I see someone revolutionize the arts away from the current paradigm that is Martial Arts, only THEN will I consider them to be considerable to Lee. This goes not to say that Lee was the absolute, but based on speed alone... even today, I haven't seen many that matched his caliber.

I can never understand the need for people to take credit away from someone so great.

Single handedly?

 

[Thunder Foot]

Single handedly?

Yes Sir! Maybe dual handedly, since he was proficient with both hands, hehe

Joking aside, I really don't understand the meaning of your quote.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes Sir! Maybe dual handedly, since he was proficient with both hands, hehe

Joking aside, I really don't understand the meaning of your quote.

He was cult of personality formula, at the right place, at the right time. Just like Jean Claude.
Sean

 

[James Kovacich]

He was cult of personality formula, at the right place, at the right time. Just like Jean Claude.
Sean

So you would compare him to Jean Claude?