Woman, 61, arrested for asking ‘why'

[Bob Hubbard]

Not being confrontational with this Bob, just furthering a conversation:

But I find it a bit conflicting that on one thread you are advocating accepting the risk of physical harm to fight for your rights but on another you are advocating to "not get involved" in helping a cop getting beat up because of the risk of physical harm.

I think that perhaps you are just looking to debate some reasonable issues, but it seems either contradictory or a tad "anti".

Just lobbing the conversation ball back to your side of the net.

See, I attribute this to walking away, vs. fighting with some jackoff who yells at you because you 'supposedly' cut him off in traffic. We could walk away, chalking it up to the guy simply being an *******, or we could challenge what he's saying. Now, for what its worth, every time someone accusses me of cutting them off, I dont always walk away. I'll give in to their antics, and yell back. But the more I think of it, in the end, its not worth me giving in to him, so short of the guy trying to physically assault me, yes, I usually sputter a few things, and go about my business.

The issue with the police....it sounds to me, as if people are trying to say there're more bad than good. Are we that fearful in todays world, where we have to worry that God forbid we pass by a cop, that he may, yell at us, slam us against a car, take us to the ground, etc.? Again, I'm not saying that there are no bad cops out there, and I'm sure we've all seen cases, but come on....if we're going to be that afraid....





I've taken calls, and still do, to this day, from residents and store owners, who complain about large groups of kids or adults, that're just 'hanging out' not really doing anything wrong per se, other than just hanging out, and I have to send a cop to move them along, no matter how stupid I may think the call is.

A state cop pulled me over one night on the highway. I was coming home from work (not the job I have now), saw something going on, on the other side of the highway, so I did what everyone else does...I rubbernecked, and in the course of this, swerved a bit. He was in an unmarked car. I saw a car behind me, but thought nothing of it. Next thing I know, he lights me up. I explained what happened, but still had to show my DL and reg., answer where I was coming from/going to, etc. Real nice cop, I explained that I lived right off the exit ramp, was on my way home, apologized for the slight swerve, and that was that. No issues, no pat downs, no search of the car, nothing. Now, had I gave him a hard time, I could almost bet that I'd have had a miserable time.

Then again, we're assuming that the worst thats going to happen, will be a wrist slap.

Gonna wander a bit here. Apologies.


It's a matter of choosing ones battles based on understanding the full situation and possible outcomes. A former member of this site once asked me if a particular issue was "a hill worth dying on". Helping a cop, or anyone for that matter who is in danger is a different "hill" as it were than defending ones rights.

I have a right to privacy. Except.....and there's a whole list where that right is trumped. But I still have a right to privacy.
I have a right not to be unreasonably detained. Except....and there's a whole list where a cop can detain me.
And so on.
Why, when the law already states a set number of situations where I have to obey a LEO, should I give them more? In all bluntness, it would assist LEO greatly if we required everyone to have their ID tattooed on their foreheads, but that's unlikely to happen this year.

Cops enjoy special privileges in order to do their thankless and dangerous jobs efficiently. I'm happy to allow you that, once I better understand it. That doesn't give you unlimited power though, nor make you above me. Most cops know this, that they are working for the common good of the people they serve. A few like the one in the OP, and that idiot in Akron OH, think a uniform and a badge means you are entitled to that free coffee, and that the public should step aside. A bully in uniform is just that, a bully.

Look at ID's. You stop me and demand my ID. Now, I'm just walking down the street here, not operating a vehicle. Maybe I'm sitting on my porch and you pull up and demand my ID. I don't have it. Why should I? I'm on my property. I'm unaware of any law in any community that says I need ID on my own porch. Of course, I can't prove it, my ID is in the house. You won't let me go get it. So I have to go down to the station with you, call someone, have them take time to bring it down, so I can go back to the home you took me from. Why? Because I didn't have my "papers" yet I am under no requirement to have them. I broke no law, but, you (generic you) make up one. Or you cite an existing one. I'm not charged, but I sure am intimidated. Now, If I had ID and showed it to you, we're done in 5 minutes. But, I'm not required to have it, and there's no legal reason to show it (in most cases), so why should I have it? Again, hours wasted, I'm inconvenienced, and possibly intimidated.

Is that the goal of a cop? To intimidate honest law abiding citizens? To waste my time and steal hours of my life so that you can look busy?

Mind you, I'm typing this conversationally, not in an enraged state. I'm clarifying here so that there's no misunderstanding of any anger or malice intended here.

This woman here dared to ask a cop why he was issuing an unlawful order.
She was arrested, lost 9 hours of her life, and had to deal with 3 court appearances.
Only to have the charges tossed.

How much money did that cost her? The Taxpayers of Atlanta?

Because this cop thought he was above the law.

If I'm standing on a corner, I want to know 2 things.
1 that I'm safe.
2 that any cop I encounter will be polite and professional, and not a jerk.

99.9% of the cops I've dealt with have been that. Polite and professional.
I've only encountered 1 cop who lied under oath. (I'm sorry, but you do not calibrate those radars every morning, nor are your in car speedometers calibrated daily.)

Now, I'm not advocating digging in ones heels, and arguing and causing a huge blow up. I'm saying you choose your battles. Sometimes, it's better to give up ground.

I have a lot more respect for the cops who know the law, and enforce it, and don't have to make up stuff to push their "authority" around. I'm polite and professional in my direct dealings with cops. I'll sir you to death. But I have nothing but contempt for the bully cops.

Put another way, just because it's convenient, doesn't make it right.

Aren't cops supposed to protect our rights, not violate them?

Now, on the loitering aspect, teens hang out in store doorways all around me. Hard to shag their asses out, we've had store owners threatened when they tried. Cops come, kids move, later on windows get broken. That's different though from a couple of old ladies on a sidewalk. Unless one of them is Grandma Gracie.

Now, I do realize I'm likely annoying some with this. I'm sorry. But I've learned a lot from these in-depth exchanges, and hope others have too, on both sides of the 'blue line' as it were. If I have a key purpose for these debates, it's to expand on our understanding of rights, laws, etc. and improve our in person interactions, and help restore public trust in law enforcement. Something sadly lacking in some areas, both by fault and no fault of the local cops.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Gonna wander a bit here. Apologies.


It's a matter of choosing ones battles based on understanding the full situation and possible outcomes. A former member of this site once asked me if a particular issue was "a hill worth dying on". Helping a cop, or anyone for that matter who is in danger is a different "hill" as it were than defending ones rights.

Well, I agree...knowing the possible outcomes is always a plus. Personally, I dont assume or feel that the cops are out to get me, harrass me, etc. Then again, common sense should tell you (not singling you out Bob, just using the word you as a ref. point. ) that if you yell back at the jerk on the street, that maybe he'll get pissed and come after you, just like if you yell at the cop, run, fight, whatever, that you may get in more hot water, than you initially would have, were you to just cooperate in the first place.

As far as helping the police....well, I wasn't involved in that thread, but I'll put in my .02 anyways. If I were to see a male and female fighting in the street, I'd be less likely to physically help. Why? Because the odds of the 'victim' suddenly turning on me, are high. I'd rather call for help. If I saw a cop fighting with someone, I would either call for help on my cell phone or use his car radio. Were I to jump in to help him, if at all possible, I would ask if he wanted help. Last thing I want him to think, is that I'm coming to help the bad guy. Of course, getting physically involved, I know that I do have a high chance of getting hurt or worse.

I have a right to privacy. Except.....and there's a whole list where that right is trumped. But I still have a right to privacy.
I have a right not to be unreasonably detained. Except....and there's a whole list where a cop can detain me.
And so on.
Why, when the law already states a set number of situations where I have to obey a LEO, should I give them more? In all bluntness, it would assist LEO greatly if we required everyone to have their ID tattooed on their foreheads, but that's unlikely to happen this year.

Agreed, however, if they're conducting an investigation, I feel that its only right to cooperate, whether I feel its wrong or right. At that moment, I dont want to bring any extra issues on myself. Cop wants to search my car, go for it pal...I have nothing to hide. Cop wants me to get out and pat me down, fine, go for it, again, nothing to hide.

Cops enjoy special privileges in order to do their thankless and dangerous jobs efficiently. I'm happy to allow you that, once I better understand it. That doesn't give you unlimited power though, nor make you above me. Most cops know this, that they are working for the common good of the people they serve. A few like the one in the OP, and that idiot in Akron OH, think a uniform and a badge means you are entitled to that free coffee, and that the public should step aside. A bully in uniform is just that, a bully.

Agreed, and I've said many times that there are bad apples that ruin the bunch.

Look at ID's. You stop me and demand my ID. Now, I'm just walking down the street here, not operating a vehicle. Maybe I'm sitting on my porch and you pull up and demand my ID. I don't have it. Why should I? I'm on my property. I'm unaware of any law in any community that says I need ID on my own porch. Of course, I can't prove it, my ID is in the house. You won't let me go get it. So I have to go down to the station with you, call someone, have them take time to bring it down, so I can go back to the home you took me from. Why? Because I didn't have my "papers" yet I am under no requirement to have them. I broke no law, but, you (generic you) make up one. Or you cite an existing one. I'm not charged, but I sure am intimidated. Now, If I had ID and showed it to you, we're done in 5 minutes. But, I'm not required to have it, and there's no legal reason to show it (in most cases), so why should I have it? Again, hours wasted, I'm inconvenienced, and possibly intimidated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

Cops where I work, routinely get involved in cases, in which the person(s) they're dealing with, dont have an ID on them, so they run their name and DOB. As someone said earlier...perhaps they pull up and stop you, because you match a description of someone they're looking for, etc. There have been times, when suspects in a crime, got into a car and left the area. The victim describes the car, only as a black, 4dr. car with 3 people inside. No plate available. So now, you can bet that should you be driving a black 4dr car, with 2 of your friends inside, that you will probably be stopped and questioned. Doesn't mean you did anything wrong, only that you happened to be driving the same car as the suspects.

Is that the goal of a cop? To intimidate honest law abiding citizens? To waste my time and steal hours of my life so that you can look busy?

Nope. But again, this almost sounds like more times than not, this is what they do. I disagree.

This woman here dared to ask a cop why he was issuing an unlawful order.
She was arrested, lost 9 hours of her life, and had to deal with 3 court appearances.
Only to have the charges tossed.

How much money did that cost her? The Taxpayers of Atlanta?

Because this cop thought he was above the law.

If I'm standing on a corner, I want to know 2 things.
1 that I'm safe.
2 that any cop I encounter will be polite and professional, and not a jerk.

As I said in an earlier post, I dont want to use this article as gospel. Is it a complete article? Is there stuff missing? If in fact, these women were doing nothing wrong, I have no issues with saying the cop was wrong.

99.9% of the cops I've dealt with have been that. Polite and professional.
I've only encountered 1 cop who lied under oath. (I'm sorry, but you do not calibrate those radars every morning, nor are your in car speedometers calibrated daily.)

I can only assume that there are set maintenance times for those things. Were I work, the cops that do run radar, have (and forgive me if I'm not describing it correctly) something to the effect of a tuning device. This is what I'm talking about.

Now, on the loitering aspect, teens hang out in store doorways all around me. Hard to shag their asses out, we've had store owners threatened when they tried. Cops come, kids move, later on windows get broken. That's different though from a couple of old ladies on a sidewalk. Unless one of them is Grandma Gracie.

Sad but true. This is why, many times, people wish to remain anonymous. I mean, you get 10 kids, with nothing better to do, standing in front of a store, not buying anything, and intimidating others that may want to enter the store, well, now the store owner is losing business.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Keep in mind too, that when I say it's ok to ask a cop why I'm talking about doing so in a polite and non-confrontational manner, not the attitude laced chip on shoulder way.

I will always question authority. Defying it, that's a different matter.

Keep in mind, I have invited FBI into my home, with a weapons collection in plain view. It was, amusing. (note to any FBI reading - hire more agents who aren't allergic to cats. )