Britian: Firearms cheap, easy to get and on a street near you

[Tez3]

Surely it's a given that what is fine for the citizens of one country may not be fine for the citizens of another? I don't see the need to insult the people of one country just because they don't think or go about things the way you may in your's. It doesn't mean that any country is necessarily right as I don't believe there is any one right answer to problems that afflict our societies.
I know it hards to imagine living under a different system especially if it's radically different but that doesn't make that systme wrong or the citizens brainwashed. the truth still is if you don't like it one one country you are free to leave and live where you feel comfortable. Thats become increasingly easy for the citizens of the UK as we have rights of entry and of work in the EC now.
Can we not accept and embrace our differences whithout howls of abuse calling us stupid, brainwashed or sheeplike because we like the system we have? We could easily turn round and say Americans are brainwashed into believing they need guns and that the government won't spend enough money on policing so people have to defend themselves! Is that the truth? No, of course not! it's horses for courses, you have your way and we have ours.
Rather than suggest we all need to be armed, suggestions on how to beat the gang culture would be welcomed, how to keep the young men of this country form killing each other. What engages young men and would get them out of this spiral of gangs, death and drugs? Are there schemes in America we can follow?
I have an interest in this as I'm in a position to implement and suggest schemes that will reduce gang activity in our area or perhaps even preents lads from jining gangs.

 

[Tez3]

The majority of handgun owners before the ban were actually collectors and people who had something their dad brought back from the war, tucked away and forgotten about. Very few people bought or obtained weapons with the intent to use for defence.
The bane of my life at the moment is the military who are smuggling back weapons from warzones and selling them and a certain Liverpool regiment who nicked weapons from their own armoury and sold them in their home town. Ah scousers they are just scallies lol.

 

[KenpoTex]

If my understanding of events is wrong regarding what I said about a ban, my apologies. Perhaps you can clarify exactly what types of firearms people are allowed to own, and under what circumstances (said clarification would be helpful). Are there different requirements for rifles, handguns, and shotguns? And, what types of the aforementioned weapons are legal, and which ones are illegal.

As to the other stuff, I have my opinion and you have yours. We are probably never going to actually agree given our different cultural backgrounds, and obviously, different views on the specific topic at hand.
No insult was intended...trust me, when/if I decide to insult someone you'll know it...I'm not very subtle.

 

[Tez3]

If my understanding of events is wrong regarding what I said about a ban, my apologies. Perhaps you can clarify exactly what types of firearms people are allowed to own, and under what circumstances (said clarification would be helpful). Are there different requirements for rifles, handguns, and shotguns? And, what types of the aforementioned weapons are legal, and which ones are illegal.

As to the other stuff, I have my opinion and you have yours. We are probably never going to actually agree given our different cultural backgrounds, and obviously, different views on the specific topic at hand.
No insult was intended...trust me, when/if I decide to insult someone you'll know it...I'm not very subtle.

Here you go, you can look it all up yourself lol!
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/

I'n not sure its so much that we can't agree because I can agree you solution to your problems is the right one but you seem to think your solution to our problems is also the right one! I'm not insisting that you should all have your weapons taken off you to suit what I think. Actually I'd have to look a lot more deeply into your policies before I even passed an opinion on them, if I did at all. I have no idea whether you all carrying weapons is good bad or indifferent.

 

[mook jong man]

In Australia we have pretty much the same gun and knife laws as they do in Britain and even no cartwheel laws now. But the police do walk around with hand guns on them and so do some security guards .

Like Britain we are also getting this gangster rap culture where you have young aboriginal boys , lebanese boys and pacific islander boys going around like they are boys in da hood. We are a big island and we can't stop the guns coming in either , they seemed to get smuggled in inside car parts etc from China .

The gangs will also hold up security guards when they are emptying the atms and take their hand guns off them as well . But even though we have this crime , we are not really a gun culture.

I myself have not even fired a real gun , not unless you count an air rifle and i don't know anybody who has guns. So don't go giving the Poms a hard time , Australia and New Zealand are pretty much the same as Britain except we can play cricket

 

[Sukerkin]

So don't go giving the Poms a hard time , Australia and New Zealand are pretty much the same as Britain except we can play cricket

Ooh! Me, stumped for words .{yeah, cricket based pun attack !}

You were doing so well ... right up until the end :lol:. I withheld my rage and didn't RTM you for racial abuse ... but it was a close run thing .

 

[mook jong man]

Ooh! Me, stumped for words .{yeah, cricket based pun attack !}

You were doing so well ... right up until the end :lol:. I withheld my rage and didn't RTM you for racial abuse ... but it was a close run thing .

Yeah well , you lot seem to kick our backsides in rugby these days every chance you get , and you blitzed us in the olympic medal count .

So please leave us poor convicts with some dignity .
ps Let this be a warning to you if you don't let us beat you in something soon we shall continue to inflict "Neighbours " and "Shane Warne " on to you until you surrender. :lol:

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ken,

It's like this:

http://www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=78

Licenses have been required for rifles and handguns since 1920, and for shotguns since 1967. A decade ago semi-automatic and pump-action center-fire rifles, and all handguns except single- shot .22s, were prohibited. The .22s were banned in 1997. Shotguns must be registered and semi-automatic shotguns that can hold more than two shells must be licensed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

All firearms in the United Kingdom must be licensed on either a firearm certificate (FAC) or a shotgun certificate.

Shotguns are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24" and a bore not larger than 2" in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges. This effectively gives a maximum three round overall capacity, while shotguns with a capacity exceeding 2+1 rounds are subject to a firearm certificate. Shotguns thus defined are subject to a slightly less rigorous certification process.

A firearm certificate differs from a shotgun certificate in that justification must be provided to the police for each firearm; these firearms are individually listed on the certificate by type, calibre, and serial number. A shotgun certificate similarly lists type, calibre and serial number, but permits ownership of as many shotguns as can be safely accommodated.

To gain permission for a new firearm, a "variation" must be sought, for which a fee is payable, unless the variation is made at the time of renewal, or unless it constitutes a one-for-one replacement of an existing firearm which is to be disposed of. The certificate also sets out, by calibre, the maximum quantities of ammunition which may be bought/possessed at any one time, and is used to record the purchasing of ammunition (except, optionally, where ammunition is both bought, and used immediately, on a range).

To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be convinced that a person has "good reason" to own each gun, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, gun licenses are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun.

Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiably good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where guns will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a license be issued.

Any person who has spent more than three years in prison is automatically banned for life from obtaining a gun licence.

Any person holding a gun licence must comply with strict conditions regarding such things as safe storage. These storage arrangements are checked by the police before a license is first granted, and on every renewal of the licence. A local police force may impose additional conditions on ownership, over and above those set out by law. Failure to comply with any of these conditions can mean forfeiture of the gun licence and surrender of any firearms to the police.

The penalty for possession of a prohibited firearm without a certificate is currently a mandatory minimum five year prison sentence and an uncapped fine.

In addition, the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 increased restrictions on the use, ownership, sale and manufacture of both airguns and imitation firearms.

 

[Tez3]

Ken,

It's like this:

http://www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=78

Licenses have been required for rifles and handguns since 1920, and for shotguns since 1967. A decade ago semi-automatic and pump-action center-fire rifles, and all handguns except single- shot .22s, were prohibited. The .22s were banned in 1997. Shotguns must be registered and semi-automatic shotguns that can hold more than two shells must be licensed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

They are banned from private homes but can be used in gun clubs

All firearms in the United Kingdom must be licensed on either a firearm certificate (FAC) or a shotgun certificate.

Shotguns are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24" and a bore not larger than 2" in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges. This effectively gives a maximum three round overall capacity, while shotguns with a capacity exceeding 2+1 rounds are subject to a firearm certificate. Shotguns thus defined are subject to a slightly less rigorous certification process.

A firearm certificate differs from a shotgun certificate in that justification must be provided to the police for each firearm; these firearms are individually listed on the certificate by type, calibre, and serial number. A shotgun certificate similarly lists type, calibre and serial number, but permits ownership of as many shotguns as can be safely accommodated.

To gain permission for a new firearm, a "variation" must be sought, for which a fee is payable, unless the variation is made at the time of renewal, or unless it constitutes a one-for-one replacement of an existing firearm which is to be disposed of. The certificate also sets out, by calibre, the maximum quantities of ammunition which may be bought/possessed at any one time, and is used to record the purchasing of ammunition (except, optionally, where ammunition is both bought, and used immediately, on a range).

To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be convinced that a person has "good reason" to own each gun, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, gun licenses are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun.

Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiably good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where guns will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a license be issued.

Any person who has spent more than three years in prison is automatically banned for life from obtaining a gun licence.

Any person holding a gun licence must comply with strict conditions regarding such things as safe storage. These storage arrangements are checked by the police before a license is first granted, and on every renewal of the licence. A local police force may impose additional conditions on ownership, over and above those set out by law. Failure to comply with any of these conditions can mean forfeiture of the gun licence and surrender of any firearms to the police.

The penalty for possession of a prohibited firearm without a certificate is currently a mandatory minimum five year prison sentence and an uncapped fine.

In addition, the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 increased restrictions on the use, ownership, sale and manufacture of both airguns and imitation firearms.

That's reasonably correct except the bolded bit, I don't know where that came from. Special Branch, hmm think not! it's much much easier than that I can assure you which may not be a good thing or may, who knows.

 

[KenpoTex]

I don't really know that we can actually gain anything from continuing to beat this horse...

I know that there are many people in America who would never stand for or submit to those same types of laws and I find myself in total agreement with both their philosophy and their willingness to do whatever is necessary to thwart the attempts of those in positions of power to implement such measures. I do not agree with those laws or the "rationale" behind them but that's just my opinion which is worth exactly what you paid for it.

That said, If the people of England are happy with their government and the laws that are in place, so be it...I wish them well and hope that they never have cause to regret their choices.

 

[thardey]

I've been biting my tongue on this thread, since it's like what? the fourth or fifth on this subject anyway?

Besides, in the last go round, Tez made her point pretty clear, and although it is different than what I was raised with (my grandfather was a retired cop, and always had a pistol within arm's reach), I can see the point of being in a totally different culture, and if that culture is not a "Gun Culture" like America, then guns are less of an issue.

Seriously, though, how many of these threads have been started by England's subjects complaining about their own laws? Why do we, as Americans, have to go complaining about their laws, unless it's to convince other Americans that our own laws are right? Are we really interested in changing the laws over the pond, or do we just want to use them as a "Bad example" to keep our own 2nd Amendment rights?

If it's the former, then keep our bloody nose out of their business - if it's the latter, the smarter argument would be to defend the right for it's own sake -- "self-evident" I believe is the term used in the past.

Now, Tez asked a good question earlier - our American bad habits are spreading throughout the world, how do we deal with them? This is where the answer gets hard - The way American Communities typically deal with gangs is to arm themselves, and make it publicly known that we will shoot back. For the most part, the average American can afford higher-quality handguns than the gangs, and put in as much, if not more practice. In fact, some stores here have a sign posted in the front inviting CCW holders to carry in their stores!

At least, that's what is happening in Southern Oregon. The California gangs are moving up, and hitting a culture that is much more lax in gun-control than where they came from. It has significantly arrested the growth here. Most gang-related activity is becoming more involved in the business side of drugs and such, rather than "turf wars" over physical boundaries. The police that I know who deal with the gangs here are glad to learn that I carry, and encourage more private citizens to arm themselves.

(In fact one day I was bringing my Dad's AR-15 home to clean it, and do some work on the trigger for him, when my next-door neighbor saw me bringing it in from the truck. He is a retired county sheriff, and his wife still works for the sheriff's dept. His first reaction was: "nice gun, where's your sidearm?" I turned to show him the .45 on my hip [concealed, of course], and then he was satisfied.)

There's still problems with gangs, of course, but they stay within the culture of the gangs themselves. It only crossed over into "civilian life" when there's meth involved.

The problem I see with the American Gang mentality spreading through the world is that it is like introducing a new species to a place where there are no natural predators. In it's native environment, the gangs have a natural enemy that restricts their growth, in other environments, they don't have a natural enemy, so they'll have room to flourish. Even in California, the citizens are allowed to arm themselves at home, if usually not on the streets, and that still is a bit of a deterrent.

Now - as you've said before, England and Australia aren't "Gun Cultures" -- that means that either you are going to have to adopt our solutions for the problems we created and exported, or you're going to have to come up with your own.

I won't say that guns is the only answer, but it's worked for us, because they're part of our culture already. If you find a better way to deal with it - let us know, and we'll use it alongside of what we're doing already!

 

[Deaf Smith]

That's reasonably correct except the bolded bit, I don't know where that came from. Special Branch, hmm think not! it's much much easier than that I can assure you which may not be a good thing or may, who knows.

Only certian reasons are allowed to own any firearm in England, and self defence is not considered one of them.

'Offensive weapons' are not allowed to be carried nor pretty much posessed Tez3. And any firearm is considered an 'offensive weapon'. Thus owning a firearm for self defence would not be considered and the application to own one would be denighed.

Remember Tez3, the weapon must be stored in a very secure device and be unloaded (kind of like Washington D.C. up to now.)

Just try to get an application from your local police and tell them you want the firearm for self defence in your home.

Deaf

 

[Tez3]

Only certian reasons are allowed to own any firearm in England, and self defence is not considered one of them.

'Offensive weapons' are not allowed to be carried nor pretty much posessed Tez3. And any firearm is considered an 'offensive weapon'. Thus owning a firearm for self defence would not be considered and the application to own one would be denighed.

Remember Tez3, the weapon must be stored in a very secure device and be unloaded (kind of like Washington D.C. up to now.)

Just try to get an application from your local police and tell them you want the firearm for self defence in your home.

Deaf

Actually I have weapons in my home and carry weapons at work.

Thardey thank you for a very erudite post! I'm going to make this my last post on this thread, I've tried explaining how things are here and the thread is going round in circles so to save my frustrations I'm calling it a day on this one..........well until the next one comes up lol!

 

[KenpoTex]

um...never mind.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This really should not be an us vs. them kind of debate. The UK has been our staunchest ally and we theirs. I am happy with how we do things here and I am sure most people in the UK are happy how things are there.

I would like to make one point though and it is not related to guns. Gangs or their equivalent can be found in every country and every society not just America. The gang culture over seas has little to do with America other than said culture possibly emulating what they see coming out of Hollywood. The United States of America in general has a great law abiding citizenship and we are simply not all about guns and gangs! Just my 02.

 

[Tez3]

um...never mind.

Oh go on you know you want to lol!

 

[Deaf Smith]

I would like to make one point though and it is not related to guns. Gangs or their equivalent can be found in every country and every society not just America. The gang culture over seas has little to do with America other than said culture possibly emulating what they see coming out of Hollywood. The United States of America in general has a great law abiding citizenship and we are simply not all about guns and gangs! Just my 02.

That's what my first instructor, Master John Chu, who came from Korea, said. He said there were gangs in Korea just like the U.S. (and this was in 1977 he was saying that!)

All countries have gangs, drugs, prostitution, corruption.... why you would think we were all humans!

Deaf

 

[sgtmac_46]

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.
More advice from the world's police.
No, guns aren't that easy to get hold of but there's been gangs with guns dating backing to when guns were first invented, arming the populace would solve nothing as they don't want to be armed. Rightly or wrongly they don't want their police armed either, my force is the only one routinely armed as we aren't Home Office police and the nature of the job is different.
Nine and a half thousand guns crimes in two countries with a combined population of 63,756,938 isn't bad is it? Oh and btw some of that gun crime is terrorist related as in the Provos and the Loyalists are still at it. Oh and gun crime over here isn't actually using them it's also possession and gun trafficking. the majority of gun crimes involving shootings are drug gang related where they shoot each other, there has been a few high profile cases where kids have been killed in shootings but arming people would not have stopped them, again though they are gang related.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

America seems to have a much higher rate of crime in just one of it's cities than all three of our countries, The Channel Islands and The Isle of Man put together. In fact it seems to have more crime than the European Community and that's well over 20 countries.

There's a reason we have a higher rate of crime in cities like Washington DC....where guns have been banned since 1978. Here's a hint. Compare the gun crimes in virtually EVERY part of America EXCEPT the major urban areas and you'll find identical rates of violent crime as in the safest places in Europe.

America doesn't have a gun problem, or a crime problem....we have an inner-city problem. Outside the decaying inner-cities of America, America is a peaceful and prosperous place.....where I grew up we have about 1 murder per decade and a half......despite 90% of the population being armed to the teeth.

Again what we have in America is an inner-city crime problem, more specifically, we have a problem in our African American community which, though only 13% of the American population accounts for 52.2% of the entire murder rate for the entire country. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Poverty accounts for some of that, but even that doesn't explain it entirely as equivalent groups of other races at the same level of poverty don't exhibit nearly the same levels of violence. Certainly it's some combination of poverty and cultural norms. But clearly solving America's violent crime problem isn't found in banning guns....but in figuring out how to solve the core problems plaguing America's inner-cities.

 

[sgtmac_46]

A small elaboration, Mr. Smith. Geologically, Britain is an island it is true. Sadly we did a technologically great but fundamentally stupid thing by linking ourselves to mainland Europe with a tunnel.

All sorts of things are coming through there, ranging from deadly spiders to rabies to illegal immigrants to guns.

Also, even if the tunnel did not exist, smuggling has been a fact for as long as there has been restrictions on imports. Passing a law to prohibit the importation of something just means it doesn't come through one of the regular ports - our coastline might not be as wiggly as Norways's nor as long an America's but there are plenty of places to pull up a dinghy running with no lights and off-loading a few boxes of something.

Apart from that, it is something to ponder the differences in crime rates between countries and why they exist. You would think that the proportion of people inclined to do bad things was a constant from place to place but it seems not.

I have a personal theory that is related to poverty, or at least exclusion from the means to garner sufficient funds to support yourself. I might shimph and winge (aka moan) about my tax rate but it's prescence to fund the SS does seem to work to turn our would-be criminal statistics into spongers instead. In the end I do think that is a better road, even tho' it might cost me more Pounds Sterling personally in the long run.

A welfare state is NOT the answer to crime.....in the long run it's a recipe for the collapse of civilization.

One need not just look at Rome to figure out what happens when the government becomes all about providing the people bread and circus.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This really should not be an us vs. them kind of debate. The UK has been our staunchest ally and we theirs. I am happy with how we do things here and I am sure most people in the UK are happy how things are there.

I would like to make one point though and it is not related to guns. Gangs or their equivalent can be found in every country and every society not just America. The gang culture over seas has little to do with America other than said culture possibly emulating what they see coming out of Hollywood. The United States of America in general has a great law abiding citizenship and we are simply not all about guns and gangs! Just my 02.

Absolutely! If the British people want to live that way, more power to them. We in the US have a different tradition, we have a bill of rights that has as part of it's core the Individual Right to keep and bear arms. We have that out of a unique tradition that believes that governments need to be checked by the power of the people, and the knowledge that governments can and do become tyrannical.

America is a unique country in the history of the world in that, among other rights we recognize the right of armed citizenry, which is codified within our Constitution.