Bringing back old school karate

[Robert Lee]

I agree there to On the student aspect. It was like going through a boot camp program But you never graduate boot camp. Just train and train both for condition and skills over and over Black belt well it was not about belt color it was about learning. And there have been several methods of old kata training lost because of the softer aspects coming into play. What is said about the old teachers/ masters. They could do many things that people today can not. The old one punch kill its really unheard of today. Because you have to condition for that kind of power for the fist and arm to be a battering ram tool same with the kicks Pain meant gain If you have trained for a while you remember the Block training hard punches hard blocks over and over the bruises would form on both peoples armes down to the bone Be really sore and the next day you did it agin after awhile You did not feel pain any more Your bones and tissue was getting conditioned. Or the full power kicks thrown at you Saat in sanchin stance betwwen your legs. If you were not in a strong stance the kick would penatrate the stance hit you directly in the groin. They would start out softer at first but as time went by They became full power not pulled at all. And that has been taught during this time frame I had to do that in the 70s. Now 75 years ago It was much more entence. Kind of gladiator school training train hard each day every day. Today the ring fighters mostly are the ones that know to fight you have to train for condition and enderance even though they have rules they have to be in better shape then most M/A practitioners train

 

[Dark]

The problem with traditional karate is the lack of tradition. In Okinawa there was little recorded technique or style except for the last hundred or so years. How do you get back to function but without the excess form.

 

[Robert Lee]

You would probably have to research you given stry or Ryu befor it had its newer given name. The old Kata koryu were the earlyer Katas in several Ryus. Then more added by the person that the Ryu was handed down to Like if I am still right Go ju ryu before Miyagi made his additions had 6 koryu katas And sanchin and tensho katas But sanchin was an open hand kata changed to closed fist gekisia di iche, di ni, and di san, gekiha di iche, di ni, and kakuha di iche, and di ni were added kata. Then Toguchi added tanduku katas di iche, di ni, and di san But it dates back to higashiana If i spelled that write. Where he was said to have studied Nahate. And trained for 30 years in china in shorinji temple boxing Then came back to Okinawa tried teaching what he had learned in China but it did not fit well to the need of his students So he adpated the changes mixing both arts And Miyagi Was a devoted student There is a verbal history and some writing About the arts. Back then they had no real name except To de. China hand Ut was when Japan want to have the arts spread to there lands that Arts were given there modern name And the name Kara te. I have a unpublished book by Toguchi Its in a pamplet form He was going to have it published years ago but chose not It was handed down to Black belt students Has some useful info in it I have not read trhough it in years I beleive I got it back in about !980. It had been around for years copied and handed down. So there is more info out there I no longer train in Go ju I still use some of what I learned But went on to other arts Mainly stay with JKD but keep my eye open. Just train hard if you do not want ther forms/kata break them down Find there tools that best meet your needs They were put into Kata to hide them more or less so one could train solo without attracting attention to what they were doing If asked it was some kind of dance movement Japan ruled over Okinawa you were allowed No weapons Thats why we have the converted farm tool weapons today. So modern weapons would be the tire tool the wrench the gun ect. Same aspect and there legal to carry most often in your car.

 

[green meanie]

The problem with traditional karate is the lack of tradition. In Okinawa there was little recorded technique or style except for the last hundred or so years. How do you get back to function but without the excess form.

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you here but it sounds like you would prefer to drop the kata and just 'bang' -for lack of a better way to put it. Now that is a style of training that I can certainly relate to but is that karate? Just asking 'cause I don't know and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. :asian:

 

[Dark]

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you here but it sounds like you would prefer to drop the kata and just 'bang' -for lack of a better way to put it. Now that is a style of training that I can certainly relate to but is that karate? Just asking 'cause I don't know and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. :asian:

I'm for dropping the excess kata, I understand having one or three, but 30 come on that excessive. To me kata is "tae-bo" with a few lessons mixed in, you don't need 26 forms to teach those lessons. Just like I'm against excessive sparring, but thats a different subject. If you remember there were inter systems in China that had only one form.

If the root is karate then yes it would be karate, it's not the forms that make karate it's the spirit. The Bunkai, actual fighting techniques are so much more important on the subject of forms.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Personally I feel kata is the heart of karate.

 

[Dark]

Personally I feel kata is the heart of karate.

I truly can't see that, compare the origional training methods of shotokan to the present USKA or JKA standards. O'Sensei Funakoshi said "Fifteen kata is enough exercise for a life time." And that was after several years and near the completion of his vision. The present 30+ kata between 3 organzations of Shotokan is inane and desturbing, so is the loss of a great many other aspects like grappling, trapping and such from the system.

Funakoshi even used a form of wieght lifting, but you don't see many Shotokan practicers who will pick up a set of dumbbells because it's not traditional.

 

[Dark]

Here is an example of old school shotokan training.

http://www.koketsudojo.com/training.htm

 

[Brandon Fisher]

15 kata is enough I agree completely with Funakoshi Sensei's comments on that. Even in the Shorinkan in Okinawa there are only 15 kata not including some Kihon Kata.

1. Naihanchi Shodan
2. Naihanchi Nidan
3. Naihanchi Sandan
4. Pinan Shodan
5. Pinan Nidan
6. Pinan Sandan
7. Pinan Yondan
8. Pinan Godan
9. Passai Sho
10. Passai Dai
11. Kusanku Sho
12. Chinto
13. Kusanku Dai
14. Gojushiho
15. Gorin​

 

[Robert Lee]

The old kata found in most Karate arts are the first kata. The others were added to easup training And make karate a exersise also. And was taught in public schools. These are the modern kata. That can be dropped or added to a style. The old kata should stay and not be changed. Now with that most style just doing the old kata would have 5 to 8 kata at the most. Then the bunki and prearranged drill plus free style jiyu kumite. The old kata was handed down From the original masters of the different arts. these kata to were trained by the different sects of karate found in Okinawa. Which was the 3 orginal Te So dropping these newer kata would give back to the old Karate having less formand more training on the tools. I read over Toguchis writing last night first time in years. He said the old kata Koryu was the root of what Karate is They made up the core of how karate developed. I can agree there. He also said Miyagi added 2 kata Then he added 7 more and that styles can add more kata to make Karate a sport. teach it as a exersise. And gear it for olmypic sports. Plus the new kata were for compition also. So modern kata was not geared really to enhance your Karate it was geared to make the learning easyer and to spread karate easyer and use Karate for more then a Martial art He also said those that do not spend the time doing the old kata will never bloom in karate. And even those tha do the old kata but never understand the end point of that kata training will never bloom in there karate.. The end point is not in the form of kata but the tools found within that kata each seperate each useful. Ha also said that the people who do kata but a short time and say you can not fight useing kata will never Karate. It is a well known fact you can not fight useing Kata But what has been put into Kata when seperated and understood you can use that. You must train Kata and train what kata has in a seperate way. He said when he learned from miyagi the way they sparred to keep it safe You would spar a person just under your rank That person would co,me at you full power with punches kicks ect, You could only block or evade when an opening was there you could reach out with a plam to touch the intended target. That would work.As the other person not holding back and you had limited defence aginst there full power on slaught. And could onlt basicly touch back showing you could defend and attack. But keep that person safe. Migt try that and see that it takes some skills not being hit just defending with blocks and evasive manuvers then only touch while the other person is trying to hit you. Now like I have said I nolonger do kata or karate in general. But Karate can work and its up to the person to train how they see fit.

 

[Dark]

Thats actually interesting, I was thinking of incorperating some Chinese boxing forms, instead of the Japanese forms. They seem more geared to actual fighting, I was amazed to learn a few years back that most kung-fu systems began with only one or two forms.

What you said it pretty interesting as well, do you know the names of those origional kata. Been a while for me.

 

[Rook]

Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at. The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.

 

[Robert Lee]

Siafa kata. sauchin kata, saisan kata, saisochin kata, sansaru kata suparenpi kata. kurunfa kata, And sanchin kata A walking zen kata breathing kata is what it is teaches balanced breathing along with proper strikeing and blocking. Now these kata come from china And have been shared with the 3 original styles Of karate Which was just unique to which original ryu Im not 100 percent sure But they are said to be the root to all Karate. They came from the shorin temple Which is tye shaolin temple And they spread to okinawa. They were kempo based from Buda Harma As thats is what he first taught the shaolin priests. Shorin temple boxing.

 

[Dark]

Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at. The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.

And thats why I hate modern karate, I feel kinda strange when I walk into a dojo and people act like I'm some "master" because I know how to turn blocks into traps and locks and dislocations. I'm considering the idea of tossing out the belt system as well...

 

[Robert Lee]

And thats why I hate modern karate, I feel kinda strange when I walk into a dojo and people act like I'm some "master" because I know how to turn blocks into traps and locks and dislocations. I'm considering the idea of tossing out the belt system as well...

Have you looked into JKD it offers a decent method. And has no belts just levels. But thats choice on what some one wants to do.

 

[Dark]

Have you looked into JKD it offers a decent method. And has no belts just levels. But thats choice on what some one wants to do.

It's not that I don't respect other arts, I studied like 30 but hold rank in any but six, I just would like to see karate de-evolve back into a practical martial art. Not a gymnastic-kung-fu-theater type of thing...

 

[pstarr]

I'd LOVE to see that, too (include kung-fu as well).

But.

The bag is out of the cat and there's no putting it back now.

But those who support TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS can start doing things to promote traditional arts and try to build up our numbers again...that's something we could all discuss-

Ideas?

 

[Dark]

I'd LOVE to see that, too (include kung-fu as well).

But.

The bag is out of the cat and there's no putting it back now.

But those who support TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS can start doing things to promote traditional arts and try to build up our numbers again...that's something we could all discuss-

Ideas?

The best I can come up with is strip karate down to the core aspects, incorperate a few forgotten concepts and bunkai and start teaching. One of the first two to go has to be (a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and (b) no large governing bodies, no new organizations. Lets just be a bunch of martial artist who train hard and compare knowledge in the spirit of fellowship and growth. Sound good?

 

[Andrew Green]

(a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and

Myth, plain and simple. No one wore dirty belts, that would be stinky, unhygenic, and very deserving of a but kicking to whatever person showed up to Prof. Kano's class with a dirty belt.

 

[Dark]

Myth, plain and simple. No one wore dirty belts, that would be stinky, unhygenic, and very deserving of a but kicking to whatever person showed up to Prof. Kano's class with a dirty belt.

I've seen a few dojos in Okinawa (the RyuKyu Islands to the Japanese) use that concept a few years back. They trained outside rain or shine so thier gis were generally dirty anyway. I always thought it was an Okinawan concept for making fun of the Japanese belt system or something. But I haven't found a concrete source for yay or nay, it's one of the MA big foots; most say it doesn't exist and allot swore it does.