Breath Work in Wing Chun
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almost a ghost
Blue Belt
Depends on how the school wants to go.
When I use to be with a school that borrowed alot from Chi kung training, there was never any dynamic tension, while there was forced deep breathing, the was no tensing of the muscles. Kind of like Tai Chi with deep breathing.
I started to study under a master from Hong Kong, and when asked about breathing and chi building and what not, he would give us that funny look of "You can't be serious" and then explain that the first part of the form is to be done extremely slowly and relaxed to helped build up "Forward intenstion" of the arms anything else was secondary.
Anybody else do things differently?
When I use to be with a school that borrowed alot from Chi kung training, there was never any dynamic tension, while there was forced deep breathing, the was no tensing of the muscles. Kind of like Tai Chi with deep breathing.
I started to study under a master from Hong Kong, and when asked about breathing and chi building and what not, he would give us that funny look of "You can't be serious" and then explain that the first part of the form is to be done extremely slowly and relaxed to helped build up "Forward intenstion" of the arms anything else was secondary.
Anybody else do things differently?
The way my school trains sounds similar to yours Ghost. We are Yip Chun lineage and so far I've not come across any explicit Chi Kung training. I guess that the closest we get to it is performing Siu Lim Tau where the emphasis is on relaxation of the muscles and correct structure (amongst other things).
Personally I find that by being relaxed and performing the movements slowly & correctly, particularly in the first section of the form, I naturally use abdominal breathing (otherwise my structure becomes distorted). I suppose that could be seen as a form of Chi Kung, but I just see it as a natural by-product of performing Siu Lim Tau.
Personally I find that by being relaxed and performing the movements slowly & correctly, particularly in the first section of the form, I naturally use abdominal breathing (otherwise my structure becomes distorted). I suppose that could be seen as a form of Chi Kung, but I just see it as a natural by-product of performing Siu Lim Tau.
monji112000
Green Belt
Its very interesting to see how people use Chi Kung. I am pretty sure it wasn't part of Ip Man's teachings, but that doesn't mean its not worth looking into.
When a senior asked about Chi Kung and my teachers experience in Taiwan, HK, China ect.. with CHi Kung. He said that the best Chi Kung is cardio based, IE running swimming ect.. This is what has scientifically tested results. About how to breath when you fight.. he said to try and breath normally. If it makes sense to breath in on a movement then do it.. but don't focus too much on breathing.(IE follow what other "modern" MA do like boxing ect..) Its best to be natural.
I have practiced traditional Chi Kung for a few years, I have switched to more Cardio based Chi Kung. I was reading a very good article about the effects of shorter(5min) intense cardio workouts vrs. longer but milder workouts. It seems you gain more benefit with the shorter but more intense workout if done with regularity.:drinkbeer
When a senior asked about Chi Kung and my teachers experience in Taiwan, HK, China ect.. with CHi Kung. He said that the best Chi Kung is cardio based, IE running swimming ect.. This is what has scientifically tested results. About how to breath when you fight.. he said to try and breath normally. If it makes sense to breath in on a movement then do it.. but don't focus too much on breathing.(IE follow what other "modern" MA do like boxing ect..) Its best to be natural.
I have practiced traditional Chi Kung for a few years, I have switched to more Cardio based Chi Kung. I was reading a very good article about the effects of shorter(5min) intense cardio workouts vrs. longer but milder workouts. It seems you gain more benefit with the shorter but more intense workout if done with regularity.:drinkbeer
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I trained under a sifu who was a student of Chris Chan in San Francisco. Chris was a student of Yip Man.
Chris' approach is very heavy on power development. They train Sil Num Tao a lot, and do the first section slowly, with a lot of tension and force. The way my instructor would have us do it, we just breathed normally as we did this.
I started to time my breathing with the movements. As I would extend, I would breath out slowly, then exhale sharply at the wrist flick at the end of the movement. As the wrist grinds around, I would inhale and relax. Then, as the arm is withdrawn again, I would breath out slowly as the arm is pulled back in slowly, with tension and force.
In short, you exhale on the heavy-effort parts, and inhale at the relaxation points, regardless of which direction your arm is actually moving.
I talked with my sifu about it, and he believes it is a better way to develop the power, rather than just breathing normally. I think he teaches the other way because he teaches at a community college where he gets a whole new crop of newbies every semester, and it is too challenging for most of them to grasp.
There are potential problems with this method, however. If it is overdone, it can lead to hypertension and high blood pressure and heart disease later in life. There is a saying that the masters who train arts like Goju-ryu, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun, that use this kind of tension and breathing, often die at a fairly young age. Of course there are always exceptions: Hung Gar grandmaster Lam Jo lived well into his 90s (I think he passed away within the last few years).
I just try to be moderate in how much I do this, and I always finish my training with tai chi chuan, to dissipate any ill effects of the practice.
I know that other schools don't train it this way. This is, to my understanding, a result of Chris Chan's focus on power. I believe his brother, Stanley Chan, who also studied under Yip Man, does it differently and is less focused on power development, for example.
Chris' approach is very heavy on power development. They train Sil Num Tao a lot, and do the first section slowly, with a lot of tension and force. The way my instructor would have us do it, we just breathed normally as we did this.
I started to time my breathing with the movements. As I would extend, I would breath out slowly, then exhale sharply at the wrist flick at the end of the movement. As the wrist grinds around, I would inhale and relax. Then, as the arm is withdrawn again, I would breath out slowly as the arm is pulled back in slowly, with tension and force.
In short, you exhale on the heavy-effort parts, and inhale at the relaxation points, regardless of which direction your arm is actually moving.
I talked with my sifu about it, and he believes it is a better way to develop the power, rather than just breathing normally. I think he teaches the other way because he teaches at a community college where he gets a whole new crop of newbies every semester, and it is too challenging for most of them to grasp.
There are potential problems with this method, however. If it is overdone, it can lead to hypertension and high blood pressure and heart disease later in life. There is a saying that the masters who train arts like Goju-ryu, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun, that use this kind of tension and breathing, often die at a fairly young age. Of course there are always exceptions: Hung Gar grandmaster Lam Jo lived well into his 90s (I think he passed away within the last few years).
I just try to be moderate in how much I do this, and I always finish my training with tai chi chuan, to dissipate any ill effects of the practice.
I know that other schools don't train it this way. This is, to my understanding, a result of Chris Chan's focus on power. I believe his brother, Stanley Chan, who also studied under Yip Man, does it differently and is less focused on power development, for example.
My sifu instructs us on the breathing methods and they seem to be a bit different than yours. We don't breath in or out at any particular time, we focus on chambering the oxygen in our belly and using our lungs to replenish what our body has used. You do this so the muscles stay oxygenated throughout the battle.
Im of the Ho Kam Ming > Augustine Fong line and all of the sui lim tao movements that have been taught to me are relaxed. I don't think that I would be able to understand why someone would add power(strength) to WC. Being tense and constantly under force distorts the energy flow. You want all the energy to transfer from the floor to tip of the contact point. It's a pretty simple concept to where all you have to do is align the joints properly and add directional torque to the knees and elbows.
Im of the Ho Kam Ming > Augustine Fong line and all of the sui lim tao movements that have been taught to me are relaxed. I don't think that I would be able to understand why someone would add power(strength) to WC. Being tense and constantly under force distorts the energy flow. You want all the energy to transfer from the floor to tip of the contact point. It's a pretty simple concept to where all you have to do is align the joints properly and add directional torque to the knees and elbows.
One of our senior instructors Bill Bostock has been practising Qi Gong for a long time and holds seminars to incorperate it into the wing chun system (forms etc). It is interesting but not a path I want to go down.
I have come to find that breathing becomes different in every fight you encounter and on a practical level it is difficult to control it.
But there is definately no harm in developing it
I have come to find that breathing becomes different in every fight you encounter and on a practical level it is difficult to control it.
But there is definately no harm in developing it
CheukMo
Orange Belt
The school I shortly trained with stressed very strong rooting and extreme relaxation of the hands and arms specifically and relaxation of the whole body in general. The school didn't focus on chi but when the sigung came for an intimate seminar he asked permission to lightly strike us. I agreed and the sigung struck me in the chest quite lightly but a seemingly electrical "pulse" went through my body and my chest hurt, to me that was chi. Of all the formal and (mostly) informal training I had seen I never saw or felt anything like that.
I have trained and covered this topic extensively in previous arts. Chi is really just a concept. You have to realise that the body is made up of electricaly impulses and clusters of nerve endings.
Like in magic tricks, it is lack of understanding about what is happening that makes us believe that there is special energies floating around the body. It is not.
Their are certain spots in the body which are connected to completely different other points in the body. If you press someones neck in a certain spot for a certain amount of time, the person will feel a tingling in his toes. This is not chi or dim mak - it is simply that the nerve fibres are connected.
It is like in Shawshank Redemption that mentions when you receive a sharp blow to the head your jaw clamps shut. It is these kind of things that people don't expect to happen or understand why they happen and believe that it is magic.
I personally despise people who do this kind of stuff and lead the student into thinking that there are special mystics or gurus etc
Like in magic tricks, it is lack of understanding about what is happening that makes us believe that there is special energies floating around the body. It is not.
Their are certain spots in the body which are connected to completely different other points in the body. If you press someones neck in a certain spot for a certain amount of time, the person will feel a tingling in his toes. This is not chi or dim mak - it is simply that the nerve fibres are connected.
It is like in Shawshank Redemption that mentions when you receive a sharp blow to the head your jaw clamps shut. It is these kind of things that people don't expect to happen or understand why they happen and believe that it is magic.
I personally despise people who do this kind of stuff and lead the student into thinking that there are special mystics or gurus etc
That's fair enough. And respect to your SiGung for not trying to con students
I have seen a lot of programmes (Mind, Body and Kick *** Moves) and they show people ringing bells with their Kiops (when they are really stamping on the floor and making the bell ring), or pulling people over like they are on string claiming it is chi power (when really it is to do with subtle pushes to people)
I just see a lot of arts nowadays cashing in on the concept of chi, knowing that people won't question it
I have seen a lot of programmes (Mind, Body and Kick *** Moves) and they show people ringing bells with their Kiops (when they are really stamping on the floor and making the bell ring), or pulling people over like they are on string claiming it is chi power (when really it is to do with subtle pushes to people)
I just see a lot of arts nowadays cashing in on the concept of chi, knowing that people won't question it
Changhfy
Green Belt
In the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun,
We have specific sets taken from the Siu Nim Tau form that are considered Qigong sets.
With the breadth work generally the breath and energy is concentrated in the dan tien, but whats important to note is when the body raises so should the Qi (Hei) and then when the energy is realeased it should be focused down to the lower dan tien.
Also some form of dynamic tension exercises are beneficial as well.
We call this Dip Guat Gong in the Hung Fa Yi system.
As for the Ip Man system we also practised the first section slowly with concentration on the dan tien and the three vertical reference points. Its important to note that the mind must concentrate on the energy and raise to circulate and open the other channels. In opening the other channels or gates such as the Mingmen or Dian Zhu for example there are a few different ways to do so.
One you can use your own palm to use some type of da to each of the points for a total of 18 times and this will open the gates that the focus is on. Or you can also use various breathing methods coupled with postures to open those gates and circulate the energy in that manner.
I hope this helps.
take care,
Zach
We have specific sets taken from the Siu Nim Tau form that are considered Qigong sets.
With the breadth work generally the breath and energy is concentrated in the dan tien, but whats important to note is when the body raises so should the Qi (Hei) and then when the energy is realeased it should be focused down to the lower dan tien.
Also some form of dynamic tension exercises are beneficial as well.
We call this Dip Guat Gong in the Hung Fa Yi system.
As for the Ip Man system we also practised the first section slowly with concentration on the dan tien and the three vertical reference points. Its important to note that the mind must concentrate on the energy and raise to circulate and open the other channels. In opening the other channels or gates such as the Mingmen or Dian Zhu for example there are a few different ways to do so.
One you can use your own palm to use some type of da to each of the points for a total of 18 times and this will open the gates that the focus is on. Or you can also use various breathing methods coupled with postures to open those gates and circulate the energy in that manner.
I hope this helps.
take care,
Zach
