Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

[Earl Weiss]

I hope your rehab goes very although it doesn't appear you will need much.

What I need is to be 30 years younger with all original parts and none broken.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

No, this was about a year post op. I did not have he minimally invasive type

Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What I need is to be 30 years younger with all original parts and none broken.

I was holding the pad for some young girls (8-10) doing spinning hook kicks. It's amazing how "off" their technique can be, yet they still do the kick reasonably well due to flexibility.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The first issue is terminology. A Chang Hon Crescent kick is likely not what you are describing. For that system it sounds like the equivalent pf a Vertical kick with the outside edge of the foot which is called the "Foot Sword" . Chang Hon has no "Wheel Kick" I can only guess it is similar to the "Reverse Turning Kick which is usually performed with the back of the heel when the foot is not pointing - 90 degrees to the leg but can also be done with the bottom / ball of the foot if the foot is "Pointed" .

Now to the point of how or what is effective. Again this will depend in part on the sparring rule set..

However IMNSHO you should "Set Up" any rear leg kick with a lead hand or lead leg technique. As a rear leg counter the timing is part of the set up.

Gotta love the differences in terminology...
In our branch of the MDK, there is no wheel kick. What the OP is describing we would call a spinning hook kick, which is what you call a reverse turning kick. The Chang Hon turning kick is equivalent to our roundhouse kick. We do teach a reverse (or spinning) roundhouse, but I've always found it awkward (though deceptive...) and I don't think I'll get into the mechanics in this thread, to avoid derailing it.
The Chang Hon vertical kick using the outside edge of the foot would be what we call an outside crescent.

Mr. Weiss, I agree semantics make naming question foggy across styles sometimes. Bahl nahl I think is the same at Chang Hon, so are we in agreement it is a kick using the outside edge (blade) of the foot? Assuming we are, can you describe the technical components of how you do the kick when spinning? I often see it taught as a straight leg kick from beginning to end. I disagree with this concept. It is a vertical kick is the respect that the body is straight up. The knee of the spinning leg does bend raising it high to the chest. This is a defensive posture that also make it easier to get the required height. It can also make the opponent question where you are aiming the kick making it more difficult to block. So the body is straight up, the head is around eyes on the target, the hands are up by the face, especially the lead hand, the knee is bent high to the chest. This is how it can be a close in kick. The outside hip muscle (tensor fasciae latae) really comes into play. The body should already fully torqued (twisted) creating power to bring the leg/foot through the kick striking your target. I think of it as more of a right angle motion, not a circular motion (the leg not the spin). Balance after the kick is very important. I want it to be my choice whether I land my foot back where it started or step forward. How do you teach it?

Straight leg throughout will give more power. Bent leg with later extension will result in less power, but more a quicker turn and will be more deceptive.
If the toes are pointing up, striking with the edge of the foot, it would be a crescent kick; if they're parallel to the ground, striking with the heel or ball of the foot, it would be a hook kick.

first question I have is "Spinning" rearward or forward. . For example. If you start with the right foot back and are kicking with the right foot , are you turning clockwise (Rearward) ? We also do the same kick turning forward / counter clockwise, initially a CCW turn and then foot would move from left to right.

Spinning is rearward. The kick can be done by turning forward, but that is mostly to be deceptive. The forward turn can be used to make it look like you're throwing a round house (what you would call a turning kick) to the ribs, encouraging them to block that side of the body. The leg is kept flexed till it passes the body, then extended and the heel brought back into the head from the side opposite where the roundhouse would be expected to land.

Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?

Life tears up joints. Trying to prove that a single activity out of allllllll the ones we engage in caused the need for surgery would be impossible.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Was there a correlation between TKD and needing hip surgery?

Not exactly. When I was almost 50 I found out i was born with a misalignment in my hips. Gave great insight into why I always had trouble getting my foot to point slightly downward for side piercing kicks. I was told that this condition if discovered today in youngsters while growing is addressed with braces etc. but I was way past that stage. Doc said people with that issue will need hip replacement. At that time I had no pain but a couple of years later I had to have it.

I am sure that impact training, such as running (Did one Marathon) and kicking exceedingly heavy bags played a role. In the 1970's it was a thing to brag how we were mashing 80-100lb bags. He Il Cho writes in one of his books not to use any bag over 60lbs because it is too jarring. Don Wilson opined that martial artists have issues because anatomically the hip joint is built to take impact when from the leg in a standing alignment but the impact angle for side kicks is much different.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Gotta love the differences in terminology...
In our branch of the MDK, there is no wheel kick. What the OP is describing we would call a spinning hook kick, which is what you call a reverse turning kick.
.

Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House" kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.

Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed.

Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply. This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House" kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.

Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed.

Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply. This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.

The big difference seems to be (not shockingly...) terminology. What you're giving separate names we just call variations of the kick.

 

[dvcochran]

Not exactly. You are correct that the "Round House" kick is similar to the Chang Hon "Turning Kick" or more accurately the "Side Turning Kick" since the Tuning kick is for a target approximately 45 degrees to the front while the side turning kick (You have turned sideways) is to a target straight ahead.

Reverse turning is so named because the body rotates opposite or reverse direction of the turning kick. The Usual tool / contact surface is the heel or it could be the sole if the foot is pointed.

Spinning hook sounds more like what we would call Reverse hook. Similar in rotation and execution to reverse turning except the leg is mostly extended until it's about 15 degrees before the target and then the knee bends sharply. This sharp bend of the knee for the reverse hook kick increases the speed of the tool which is why this is the kick of choice for suspended breaks as opposed to a reverse turniing kick whichi would have a leg that is mostly straight throughout.

I disagree at least in semantics; a front leg is just that, akin to a jab punch; a back leg kick is a reverse kick same as a reverse punch. A kick with rotation (180°, etc...) is a spinning kick. We practice spinning on both the back and front leg. Back leg spins are much harder to me as they are usually 360° spins. Hard on the old knees.

I didn't fully understand you physical/mechanical explanation when kicking. In reference to a side kick, we teach to have the body fully inline; heel, knee, hip, shoulders in a straight line (toes down hips over). One big reason is so that no one part of the body is taking the brunt of the impact and so the force is shared throughout the entire body increasing power.

Hooks kicks are as described spinning or not. Separating the spin from the kicking leg; I teach the idea of reaching out with the leg "hooking" the back or the head and pulling it back to you. Knee high arcing the heel slightly outside the target, then motioning back to or near the starting position. Never a rear leg kick, just doesn't make sense. Great front leg kick, very fast.
Just my tow cents. I look forward to feedback.

 

[pdg]

While I obviously don't have anything like the experience of @Earl Weiss (who I'll happily defer to if I'm wrong, which I may be) I'd like to weigh in with my interpretation of what I've been taught / learned...

I disagree at least in semantics; a front leg is just that, akin to a jab punch; a back leg kick is a reverse kick same as a reverse punch. A kick with rotation (180°, etc...) is a spinning kick. We practice spinning on both the back and front leg. Back leg spins are much harder to me as they are usually 360° spins. Hard on the old knees

For hand techniques, whether they are obverse or reverse is expressed in relation to the stance.

A stance is 'handed' after which foot is carrying most weight, or in front if equal.

A left walking stance (50/50 weight) has the left foot in front, so a left hand front punch is obverse, a right hand front punch is reverse.

Change foot position to L stance (left foot in front, 70% weight on the right leg) and while the same foot is in front, the punch names are switched - so a left hand punch is now a reverse punch (because it's a 'right' stance).

In both instances, the left hand punch is akin to a jab, but the change in stance changes the label of the punch.


For a kick from either (/any) stance to be 'reverse' you have to turn/spin/rotate.

From a right L stance, you could use either leg to perform a hook kick.

To do a reverse hook kick with the right (rear) leg you spin clockwise (akin to the wheel kick spin in the video), or to use the left leg you spin anticlockwise.

Same with a side (or any actually) kick - either leg with no spin isn't a reverse technique.


As aluded to before, a "wheel kick" using the back heel (leg almost straight) is a reverse turning kick, if the leg is more bent using the sole/ball and bends more with a flick around impact, it's a reverse hook kick.

There was mention of a crescent kick too - I had quite a discussion last night about this because the terminology has changed a bit over the years...

 

[Dirty Dog]

For hand techniques, whether they are obverse or reverse is expressed in relation to the stance.

And this is different, depending on locale. In Korea, a reverse punch is the front hand. What most of the world calls a jab.

 

[pdg]

And this is different, depending on locale. In Korea, a reverse punch is the front hand. What most of the world calls a jab.

I've heard that before, but never been able to find any reference to show it isn't stance dependent (an orthodox boxing stance for instance I would consider a right stance, so a jab with the left hand - as normal - would be a reverse punch, and a cross would be obverse).

Do you have anything that can demonstrate it?


(Not a snarky challenge, I'd genuinely like to know if this disparity of terminology exists.)

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've heard that before, but never been able to find any reference to show it isn't stance dependent (an orthodox boxing stance for instance I would consider a right stance, so a jab with the left hand - as normal - would be a reverse punch, and a cross would be obverse).

Do you have anything that can demonstrate it?


(Not a snarky challenge, I'd genuinely like to know if this disparity of terminology exists.)

I can't provide a link offhand. I'm going by what my KJN says. Since he's a native born Korean speaker, and has been around since the founding days, I don't argue.

 

[pdg]

I can't provide a link offhand. I'm going by what my KJN says. Since he's a native born Korean speaker, and has been around since the founding days, I don't argue.

Yeah, that's a valid reference.

I wasn't arguing either, just an enquiry as to whether that's universally true in the language, or whether it's dependent on the terminology of the art (or sub-system).

I can provide a reference showing where I got my version from if you want?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, that's a valid reference.

I wasn't arguing either, just an enquiry as to whether that's universally true in the language, or whether it's dependent on the terminology of the art (or sub-system).

I can provide a reference showing where I got my version from if you want?

Not necessary. All it shows is what we already know - literal translation doesn't work, and terminology varies enormously.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am curious how other practitioners are taught.

Often I see misunderstanding between the crescent and wheel kick. I am aware of two crescents; inside and outside. Often the outside is used as a spinning kick. Spinning or not the outside crescent strike is with the blade (outside) of the foot. I use the spinning crescent as a closer in kick always going to the outside of the body, over the shoulder to the ear or side of the face/jaw. From a fighting stance the reverse (back leg) crescent is a low percentage kick and it exposes your front side during the kick. However, if you are open stance to your opponent it can be effective. Front leg crescents are weak but can be effective blocking. Wheel kicks (always spinning) are great for the speedster. Very fast, very powerful, an accomplished kicker can hit the wheel faster than most people can throw a reverse kick. And can often kick through a front leg kick still being effective. Very good defensively as they create little opening when done correctly.

EDIT: Just realized this is an old post.

 

[pdg]

EDIT: Just realized this is an old post.

Yes it's an old post, but it was revived by the OP so still a valid ongoing discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes it's an old post, but it was revived by the OP so still a valid ongoing discussion.

Yeah, but my post is less valid because of the number of replies already - I was asking a question already answered (in conflicting posts - terminology stuff).

 

[dvcochran]

While I obviously don't have anything like the experience of @Earl Weiss (who I'll happily defer to if I'm wrong, which I may be) I'd like to weigh in with my interpretation of what I've been taught / learned...



For hand techniques, whether they are obverse or reverse is expressed in relation to the stance.

A stance is 'handed' after which foot is carrying most weight, or in front if equal.

A left walking stance (50/50 weight) has the left foot in front, so a left hand front punch is obverse, a right hand front punch is reverse.

Change foot position to L stance (left foot in front, 70% weight on the right leg) and while the same foot is in front, the punch names are switched - so a left hand punch is now a reverse punch (because it's a 'right' stance).

In both instances, the left hand punch is akin to a jab, but the change in stance changes the label of the punch.


For a kick from either (/any) stance to be 'reverse' you have to turn/spin/rotate.

From a right L stance, you could use either leg to perform a hook kick.

To do a reverse hook kick with the right (rear) leg you spin clockwise (akin to the wheel kick spin in the video), or to use the left leg you spin anticlockwise.

As aluded to before, a "wheel kick" using the back heel (leg almost straight) is a reverse turning kick, if the leg is more bent using the sole/ball and bends more with a flick around impact, it's a reverse hook kick.

There was mention of a crescent kick too - I had quite a discussion last night about this because the terminology has changed a bit over the years...

I have to admit I had to look up the definition of obverse (head of a coin). We are back to semantics again but isn't some of this just common stance (country of origin withstanding)?
I have never heard of a stance being "handed". Front is a literal term; right leg front, right hand punch = jab or obverse. Right leg back, right hand punch = reverse.
"L" stance = back stance, weight bearing is the same.
Front stance = body facing forward, weight about equal.
Horse stance = body perpendicular to target (shoulder offered), weight 50/50.
In regards to kicks, if a reverse kick is a spin, what do you call a back leg kick. Reverse and spin are not mutual. A spin is simply a spin, regardless of stance. It is defined by the type of kick, but a spin is a spin, could be front leg or back leg. A back leg kick going forward (into you body) is reverse. Watch some Olympic matches and you will see a back leg spin (360°).
In regards to your L stance hook kick with the right leg back, left leg is a front leg hook or if you skip a skipping hook kick. If you pick up your right leg and SPIN it is a spinning hook kick. We never teach a reverse hook kick (right leg back and going forward). It would be very impractical, hell you the knees and just would not work.
The motion and purpose of a wheel kick is very different from a hook kick. A wheel is circular. Straight leg reaches further, bent leg is closer but still circular. A hook is an ellipse pulling the target back toward you.

 

[pdg]

I have to admit I had to look up the definition of obverse (head of a coin). We are back to semantics again but isn't some of this just common stance (country of origin withstanding)?
I have never heard of a stance being "handed". Front is a literal term; right leg front, right hand punch = jab or obverse. Right leg back, right hand punch = reverse.
"L" stance = back stance, weight bearing is the same.
Front stance = body facing forward, weight about equal.
Horse stance = body perpendicular to target (shoulder offered), weight 50/50.
In regards to kicks, if a reverse kick is a spin, what do you call a back leg kick. Reverse and spin are not mutual. A spin is simply a spin, regardless of stance. It is defined by the type of kick, but a spin is a spin, could be front leg or back leg. A back leg kick going forward (into you body) is reverse. Watch some Olympic matches and you will see a back leg spin (360°).
In regards to your L stance hook kick with the right leg back, left leg is a front leg hook or if you skip a skipping hook kick. If you pick up your right leg and SPIN it is a spinning hook kick. We never teach a reverse hook kick (right leg back and going forward). It would be very impractical, hell you the knees and just would not work.
The motion and purpose of a wheel kick is very different from a hook kick. A wheel is circular. Straight leg reaches further, bent leg is closer but still circular. A hook is an ellipse pulling the target back toward you.

All of it is based on semantics and terminology - in the kickboxing I do a roundhouse is rear leg coming around, effectively the same kick with the front leg is a turning kick. In TKD they're both turning kicks and a roundhouse doesn't really exist... So if I say turning kick the person has to know which discipline I'm referring to because it might mean the same thing, might not.

If you want to not include the semantic discussion here, just say and I'll keep out There are some things on stances you may find interesting though...

I'll ask in my next class (tomorrow) whether there's a terminology difference for a 'forward' directed kick depending on which leg (front or rear) is used. Tentatively I'm going to say there isn't, but that's subject to change.

Something that may help explain part of some of it... iirc you made reference to a vertical kick having the body vertical - our vertical kick is so called because the foot is vertical (toes pointing up, directly above heel) and body position is kind of irrelevant.

 

[dvcochran]

All of it is based on semantics and terminology - in the kickboxing I do a roundhouse is rear leg coming around, effectively the same kick with the front leg is a turning kick. In TKD they're both turning kicks and a roundhouse doesn't really exist... So if I say turning kick the person has to know which discipline I'm referring to because it might mean the same thing, might not.

If you want to not include the semantic discussion here, just say and I'll keep out There are some things on stances you may find interesting though...

I'll ask in my next class (tomorrow) whether there's a terminology difference for a 'forward' directed kick depending on which leg (front or rear) is used. Tentatively I'm going to say there isn't, but that's subject to change.

Something that may help explain part of some of it... iirc you made reference to a vertical kick having the body vertical - our vertical kick is so called because the foot is vertical (toes pointing up, directly above heel) and body position is kind of irrelevant.

I enjoy the discussion. Helps me map the semantics.
I am not a big forum poster so I do not know what iirc means.
I think what you call a vertical kick is commonly called a front or front snap kick. Facing target, body and toes up. Another kick where both the body and foot is vertical are crescent kicks. Outside (inside to outside leg motion)crescents strikes with the blade of the foot. Inside (outside to inside leg motion) strikes with the ball of foot.