Boys ages 14, 16 charged with gang-raping woman, torturing preteen

[Father Greek]

Hello All,

I would just like to weigh in on this topic. Having worked in the rape crisis field for the last 12 years, I feel that there is no punishment harsh enough for these despicable animals. This next observation is actually a question. What are we as individuals and as a society doing to prevent this from happening again?

I was once giving a talk to a local womans organization on rape awareness and avoidance. When I was done I asked for questions. One woman stood and asked this question: " What do we say to our daughters about rape?". There was a mass shaking of heads in agreement with this question. I responded with a question of my own: " What do we tell our sons?".

While it is hard to work within the larger society, it is quite easy to work within our little socities of family, friends and if you are inclined church. Open, honest, and informed discussion is imperative for the future of our sons and daughters.

My soapbox has now collapsed. Thank you for reading.

Father Greek:soapbox:

 

[Ceicei]

When is it early enough to talk to our sons and daughters about that topic of rape and prevention? We (as far as society goes) talk about preventing abduction and sex (typically when broached about teenage years), but how many actually will discuss the nitty gritty of possibilities of other scenarios besides abduction and casual sex? I've seen some people go as far as discussing molestation. This isn't the same thing...

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

When is it early enough to talk to our sons and daughters about that topic of rape and prevention? We (as far as society goes) talk about preventing abduction and sex (typically when broached about teenage years), but how many actually will discuss the nitty gritty of possibilities of other scenarios besides abduction and casual sex? I've seen some people go as far as discussing molestation. This isn't the same thing...

- Ceicei

I would think (knowing your kids ages) that just the basics for the girls as like "good-touch" vs "bad touch" if you haven't done that already. The boys are growing for sure and while it's a different thing for them they still need to understand that no will always mean no.
I think it's never too early just finding "age appropriate" approach and reinforce each year ... at least you won't get the "awww MOM! that's gross" when it comes time for the real serious talk.

 

[Tez3]

Why is blame being put on 'single parents'? What to you is a single parent? We've just had some newly single parents in our vicinity....mothers widowed by the Iraqi war, does this mean their children will grow up to be criminals? I know a great many single parents, male and female who are great parents with good values and ethics. How unfair to tar them with the same brush.

 

[grydth]

Disagree, but respectfully, Tez.

To the extent this is a "blame" assigning discussion, I believe every person has assigned primary blame right where it belongs: with the cannibals who committed these barbaric acts.

I would be a most unlikely suspect to "tar" single parents, as for years I was the single dad of 2 young girls myself... and my wife was the single mom of 2 boys... before we formed our "Brady Bunch".

I do not, therefore, blame or tar the single parent trying their best, as I've been there, done that. However, I would most frequently blame the ABSENT parent - those types who take off on their families to have a good time. They are nothing in my book but primate versions of cowbirds. Know what those are? They lay their eggs in other birds' nests... and then take to the sky. Sound like anybody we all know?

It is not the war widows' faults at all, but what I am saying is that family/military/community/friends must give these brave parents a hand.

 

[Tez3]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJS
My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.

QuoteEven though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.UnQuote



It was these two posts that I was actually making my point about, sorry I should have made it clearer. They come across as smug, judgemental and hurtful to single parents on this forum among others. It would have been better to say that these kids were brought up badly or come from a bad home environment rather than slag off single parents so sweepingly. It's simplistic to slag off single parents in this way.Evil is evil, many of the Nazis who perpetrated horrific acts of violence and cruelty came from two parent homes and were themselves "loving" family people.

There's a ray of hope here you know, the anger of good people! When we start shrugging off or ignoring these horrific things life will truly be cheap and not worth the effort.

Cowbirds confused me then I thought we know them as cuckoos!

 

[MJS]

Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.

I agree. I wasn't saying that was an excuse for their behavior, just that many times, in cases like this, you hear that one or both parents have a) been in and out of jail or b) one or both is still in jail.

 

[MJS]

Why is blame being put on 'single parents'? What to you is a single parent? We've just had some newly single parents in our vicinity....mothers widowed by the Iraqi war, does this mean their children will grow up to be criminals? I know a great many single parents, male and female who are great parents with good values and ethics. How unfair to tar them with the same brush.

Nothing wrong with a single parent. The difference lies, as a few have said, in the way the kids are raised. Its one thing to lose a parent in a war, but I was referring more to a parent that is in jail.

 

[MJS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJS
My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.

QuoteEven though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.UnQuote



It was these two posts that I was actually making my point about, sorry I should have made it clearer. They come across as smug, judgemental and hurtful to single parents on this forum among others. It would have been better to say that these kids were brought up badly or come from a bad home environment rather than slag off single parents so sweepingly. It's simplistic to slag off single parents in this way.Evil is evil, many of the Nazis who perpetrated horrific acts of violence and cruelty came from two parent homes and were themselves "loving" family people.

There's a ray of hope here you know, the anger of good people! When we start shrugging off or ignoring these horrific things life will truly be cheap and not worth the effort.

Cowbirds confused me then I thought we know them as cuckoos!

Speaking for my post only..there was no smugness intended. What I stated about learning what you live is fact. If there is no discipline, control, guidance, etc. in the household, what do you think these kids are going to learn? I already addressed the single parent comment in another post, so I wont repeat myself, but I'll further comment on the last part. We're talking about some young kids here. Why didnt the parent(s) of these kids know what they were doing? 9pm and the parent(s) didnt wonder what their kids were doing or where they were?

And an FYI, my Mother was my primary care giver. My Father, who I have disassociated myself with, was hardly around. Not the greatest person by a long shot. My Grandfather and step-father were in my life a hell of alot more. In fact, although he never officially adopted me, whenever I introduce him to someone, I introduce him as my Father! I didn't grow up a criminal and I credit that to them. IMO, the Father figure plays a big part. Turn on any talk show, where the feature is out of control teens, and many times, the question of the father comes into play. In jail, has nothing to do with me anymore, left when I was pregnant are a few of the answers you will hear. Additionally, the person thats usually with the out of control teen is none other than the Mother. Hmm...must be something behind that.

Mike

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.

Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?

Oh and if you'll forgive me for saying this but it's true, what those boys did is actually mild compares to what they can watch on DVD, anyone seen the "Saw" films or "Hostel"? These films are mainstream and revued in newspapers the same as Shrek and other family films. We appear to accept even condone violence now.

 

[MJS]

I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.

Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?

Tez, I'm not going to argue with you. My comments were not intended to offend anyone. I mentioned the talk show as an example, but what I said was the truth. If you dont want to see it, thats fine. You're harping on the comment I made, why I dont know. There are many posts that I find offensive as well. I chalk it up as an opinion and leave it at that!

Bottom line is, these kids, whether they're raised by 1 parent or 2, are totally out of control and it all starts on how they're raised! If there is no control or discipline, again, what are the kids going to learn? Nothing IMO.

Additionally, you seem to be confusing the difference between a parent that was killed in the war and someone who was not a part of the childs life, because they left the mother or landed in jail. Big difference there.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, I'm not going to argue with you. My comments were not intended to offend anyone. I mentioned the talk show as an example, but what I said was the truth. If you dont want to see it, thats fine. You're harping on the comment I made, why I dont know. There are many posts that I find offensive as well. I chalk it up as an opinion and leave it at that!

Bottom line is, these kids, whether they're raised by 1 parent or 2, are totally out of control and it all starts on how they're raised! If there is no control or discipline, again, what are the kids going to learn? Nothing IMO.

Additionally, you seem to be confusing the difference between a parent that was killed in the war and someone who was not a part of the childs life, because they left the mother or landed in jail. Big difference there.

Perhaps I'm annoyed because you seem to bias your remarks against women. Yes you say the fathers are at fault for leaving ( and no I'm not confusing fathers killed with absent fathers) but you say these children are being brought up by women and it's because of that they are out of control. You are saying a woman needs to have a man to enable her to bring up children correctly. You may not see that's how it's come out in your posts but it has. It's a very old hoary argument.

Children and adults are out of control for far more reasons that being from single parent homes. We are tolerating more and more 'bad' behaviour and as has been said children only do what they've been taught.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.

Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?

Well, yeah look at Linsday Lohan. (to the men: I meant look at her LIFE not HER ). I feel that it's not a lack of a parent (male or female) but the role model that one or both parents presents to their child. Single fathers or single mothers, it's just the same thing. Their own values are reflected upon the children. Children live down here (the heart) everything they get and assimilate in to their growing lives they process there, later they start processing in the mind because they learn analytical skills and learn how to process incoming information. But for the first years of their lives they go by what they feel, and what they hear/see influences their feelings about things. We are emotional creatures first, then intellectuals. So when a child grows up in a less-than-nurturing home, less than ideal (by society standards) values, less than ideal environmental conditions (run-down, slum, vermin infected, crime ridden neighborhoods) then this affects the child way into it's teen aged and young adulthood. We're seeing it, we've BEEN seeing it on the news for generations. Yet this is where society fails. If a society doesn't take care of the infirmed, poor, disabled then their offsprings become a byproduct of that environment those people have to live in... (breeding has nothing to do with it Randolf!). A child has nothing else to go on except what their parents are feeling and if their parents are in despair then that's what the child gets and acts out.
But the above statements are not necessarily always true and I do not intend to make blanket statement that they ALWAYS apply to inner-city kids. Rich kids and middle class have their share of enacting violent crimes, but proportionally it is higher amongst the poor/lower classes. Likewise it's with any and every country on this planet.
Yet still the parent, as I keep saying, has the ultimate (or majority of) burden of responsibility for their child's behavior. If the parents don't care where their kids are because they're living in their own misery or if they're too busy trying to earnestly make a living to know or to keep an eye out for their kids... Likewise the parent's value systems is passed on to the child until the child learns otherwise and THEN the child (which grows up to be an adult) will make the choice to stay or stray from the values that they learned and/or develop their own sense of values.

Oh and if you'll forgive me for saying this but it's true, what those boys did is actually mild compares to what they can watch on DVD, anyone seen the "Saw" films or "Hostel"? These films are mainstream and revued in newspapers the same as Shrek and other family films. We appear to accept even condone violence now.

A lot of people seem to make it easy to blame media for influencing violent behavior. I would have to "somewhat-disagree" with the sentiment. For reasons that violence in the mainstream media (and lets stick with movies for continuity of the present subject) has been around for a long time, even with the first films present. Think about the gangster flicks of Bogart, Robertson, Cagney and such of the 30's and 40's. Then you have the 50's and 60's films which had their own brand of violence in post war films and films like Blackboard Jungle and so on, then the 70's and 80's and on and on. Considering the content they were fairly violent for what the censors have allowed. Even now censors edit/cut quite a bit from a movie's content because of the scenes of violence. Yes, they are more gorier, more explict than before and it IS getting worse. But it always has been there and it has always been accepted. Why? Because it IS a part of our human/animal psyche. We are a violent race... humans. Yet the plus side is that we're also an intelligent reasoning race as well. We continually make the choice to attend or ignore violence on an individual basis. But it is there should we desire to delve into it. Why? Because it's a need we all have. Thankfully it is a need that we have the ability to control... by choice. What makes our choices speaks of our (personal individual) values.

 

[Sukerkin]

Let's not de-rail ourselves, ladies and gents.

A thread on one-parent families and their sociological impact would be an interesting one, no doubt (or at least a very argumentative one ) but, altho' related to the topic here, do you think it's potentailly a bit too disruptive for this thread?

 

[MA-Caver]

True, but we're looking into the causes of the atrocity we're discussing.... aren't we?

I'm kinda growing tired of reading these type of threads and reading everyone's opinion about how the perps should be punished. Ok, I'm guilty as well (..."locked away in a deep dark hole forever...") but we do ourselves a service trying to figure out WHY these dammable things happen. As a society as a whole (not just geographically specific) planet we owe it to our species to find out how best to prevent these things from happening. But you can't stop what you don't understand.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps I'm annoyed because you seem to bias your remarks against women. Yes you say the fathers are at fault for leaving ( and no I'm not confusing fathers killed with absent fathers) but you say these children are being brought up by women and it's because of that they are out of control. You are saying a woman needs to have a man to enable her to bring up children correctly. You may not see that's how it's come out in your posts but it has. It's a very old hoary argument.

Children and adults are out of control for far more reasons that being from single parent homes. We are tolerating more and more 'bad' behaviour and as has been said children only do what they've been taught.

I see that you're misreading what I'm saying, in addition to putting words into my mouth. I'm saying these kids are out of control because they're not being disciplined. Somehow you're twisting it to sound like I place the blame on the lack of control because they're being raised by a woman. Thats crazy. Did you read my post where I said I was raised by my Mother? Now, after reading that, I'm amazed how you can think what you posted!

One of my wifes highschool friends has 2 kids. She is divorced and is raising these kids by herself. They are two of the cutest, well behavied kids that I've seen. She busts her *** working hard to support both herself and her daughters. Funny how these kids are not out of control, and I've seen these kids at their house as well as out in public.

Interestingly enough, my wifes cousin is married with two kids. She has a boy and a girl, the girl is a few years younger than her brother. She is out of control. Again, I've been in their company in their house as well as in public. Father is present, mother is present, daughter out of control. There is no discipline in the house at all.

No matter how you try to twist my words Tez, it all comes down to how the kids are raised. Single parent, two parents...if they don't correct their child, what is the child going to learn? As I said, you learn what you live.

Mike

 

[Tez3]

This is going nowhere. I could do the 'you said, I said thing' but I really can't be bothered nor I do like being accused of 'twisting words', I replied to what I read, if you think that's wrong fine.

I wasn't blaming the media, I was pointing out that we are becoming more tolerant of extreme violence in films, television etc.

There's more to the subject than just blaming parents for bringing up their children the 'wrong way'. MA Caver is right we have to understand the causes and then find the way to stop it. It's not merely lack of discipline, many children in the Balkans grew up with strict parents and an even stricter government and look at the massacres and atrocities that happened there. Generally in Europe children are brought up stricter than in the States where I believe you have had child experts for a lot longer than we have. Perhaps in the UK we have slightly different problems in that we have the welfare state so we don't have the grinding poverty that will always cause unrest and dissatisfaction. Our main problem is dissaffected youths who feel they are discriminated against and who rebel against their parents many of whom they resent for bringing them to the UK. West Indian mothers are known for their discipline yet their sons are still in prison, in gangs and are dying in fights.

Before the Second World War the rich in this country were very rich and the poor very poor, slums were rife, people were still dying of cholera, polio and TB. Children didn't have shoes, families packed into single rooms, the very worst kind of deprivation and poverty. However while crimes like theft etc were still rife, the violent type of random crime we are discussing was unheard of. So what changed? The slums were knocked down and council (public) housing estates were built everywhere, the NHS was formed, free medical care for everyone. More schools were opened and expectations became higher. Everyone wanted a car, a house, nice clothes and people were being promised more and more by governments, advertisers and businesses anxious for your money. Credit became easy to get so everyone began buying on the hire purchase schemes. Consumerism took hold instead of ethics and values, over here Maggie Thatcher and the 'greed is good' lot took over but it didn't work for everyone.To keep the consumer society going there was a cost, in this country it was unemployment, the closing of the coal mines, factories closing as they went to the Far East for cheaper labour.The government changed the schools curriculum to make it easier to pass exams but the children learned that there was now nothing for them when they left school only the dole queue. The credit was now turning to debt, there was no hope of a job to pay anything off but people still expected to have everything they saw on the tele. They started thinking that society owed them a living and they owed nothing back in return. Political correctness crept in with subsequent governments, the police hamstrung.The ecomony has picked up there are jobs again but people don't want to take them now.They want the get rich quick route of apprearing on X factor and Big Brother type programmes. It's their right now to do this.

So now in the housing estates you have feral gangs, drug dealers who make more money than I will see in a lifetime and an indifference to other human beings. Casual violence is accepted, hell the governments do it, what's happening in Iraq, Afghanistan? We just drop loads on bombs on people, kill thousands of families, good example? Soldiers who we think should be the good guys as they're ours massacre villagers, men women and children. Police shoot down peace protesters, prisoners are held without trial in Cuba, politicians who lie and cheat, who have blood on their hands and the only thing anyone is interested about is 'what's in it for me mate' You can champion capitalism as much as you like but it has a lot to answer for. The weak will always lose out.

Ok rant over, I'm off to bed as I'm on early shift.

 

[Mr. E]

I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.

I think that the single family situation is part of the iceburg above the water.

People get killed and their families are left to go on without them. People get sent off to war. And sometimes people do get divorced.

But if you read the news about America, there is a very large number of women that never get married and have large number of children. Whenever you see a story about cases like this, it seems that the kids were raised by a mother with too many kids to mind them all.

It is kind of like the chicken and egg riddle. Are the kids bad because the mother had too many kids to keep them all in line, or are they bad because they were raised by a parent too stupid to realize that she should use birth control?

But yes, there are other factors involved.

One might be the perception of racism and how it is used as an excuse. There is another thread about how a man high on PCP was wandering around a (black) neighborhood with a gun and was shot by the police when he pointed it at them. As far as the neighbors are concerned, the police were in the wrong and were driven by racism.

It is my experience that people do not like to take responsibility for their failures and bad behavior. They find reason for why they were forced to rob someone else or failed at life.

When other people are saying that they are being held down due to poverty and racism, I doubt they are going to disagree.

There is racism in the world. I am a minority and know that. But to sit around and blame "The Man" for you not getting a good job does nothing and only makes you mean and bitter. And minorities have managed to make it in the world today. In America blacks who do well by mainstream means actually seem to be resented and attacked by others in the community.

So you have a community like this that is a real hell hole with an excuse as to why they do not have to take responsibility for their actions. Is that not a recipe for behavior like this?

I have seen poor places. Places far poorer than anyplace in North America. Places where people know folks who starve to death. They are safe and you can walk the streets at night. So when thugs with gold chains and teeth do a drive by shooting, I really do not see how you can blame poverty.

And despite the worse racism that existed in America and elsewhere a century ago, black communities were no worse than white ones in terms of crime. Racism does not seem to be the cause.

But in the last few decades there has been a lot of voices raised in saying that because of racism, poverty and such that the society is to blame for these types of things going on. I maintain that if people are going to give that sort of excuse to the scum that are out there, you can't expect them to take responsibility for their actions and stop the madness.

 

[Sukerkin]

Tez, other than the opening gambit, that was a superb 'rant'.

I think yourself and MJS have grabbed different ends of seperate sticks in your brief crossing of swords but the body of your post above had me going "Yep, agree with that." at every bullet point.

Take both a Golden Soapbox award and one barrow-load of kudos for wielding your hammer at several points at once :rei:.

In this country at least, what Tez posted above is an excellent definition of the problem. I know that America will be very different so it would be interesting if anyone from that side of the Pond can give a similar dissertation on your 'take' on the subject.

Of course, seeing the problem is only one half of the story ...

EDIT: Mr. E posted whilst I was typing. You make a very strong point there, sir :tup:. I feel likewise about the thuggery and Doley-Broods we have over here. When a teenage girls easiest route to enough finance to 'get by' is to have umpteen kids by different fathers (none of which should stay contactable as that would mean they have to pay rather than the State) then it's no wonder we have some of the problems we do. Especially as these 'kids for cash' one-parent families as now in their third generation or more.

I should point out, to avoid ire from certain quarters, that here I am most definitely not talking about those families who have lost one partner due to either tragic circumstances or that 'growing apart' that sometimes happens in relationships. These are girls who set out to do this as a 'career' choice whilst the blokes who provide half the genome of the cash-child generally have 'Doley' or 'Drug Dealer' as their job description.

If I sound irate about it, that's because I am. A lot of my hard earned cash goes to this particular bottomless pit by the way of taxes. Following my bike accident, I was unemployed for a few years and because I had been self-employed I had a hard time of it from the Benefits Office. I used to get the princely sum of about £40 a week to live on. Now I have a job and pay taxes that are usually £400 to £500 a month. Tell me there is equity there.

 

[MJS]

This is going nowhere. I could do the 'you said, I said thing' but I really can't be bothered nor I do like being accused of 'twisting words', I replied to what I read, if you think that's wrong fine.

LOL, I have to laugh Tez3 because if you go back and read my early posts, I stated, "Single Parent" not mother or father. It was YOU in post #44 where YOU assumed that I was talking about mothers vs. fathers.Hense, I stick to my selective reading and twisting comments.

I wasn't blaming the media, I was pointing out that we are becoming more tolerant of extreme violence in films, television etc.

And if you turn on a soap opera in the afternoon, you'll see two people in bed. Oh gee, maybe that was a poor example, once again, as I referred to television. Fact is, unless we want to turn ourselves into hermits, and never leave our house, never read the paper or turn on the tv, sex, violence, etc., is out there. Everyday last week, I picked up my daily paper and saw a shooting in the Capitol city of CT., which is Hartford. Gang and drug violence is on the rise.

There's more to the subject than just blaming parents for bringing up their children the 'wrong way'. MA Caver is right we have to understand the causes and then find the way to stop it. It's not merely lack of discipline, many children in the Balkans grew up with strict parents and an even stricter government and look at the massacres and atrocities that happened there. Generally in Europe children are brought up stricter than in the States where I believe you have had child experts for a lot longer than we have. Perhaps in the UK we have slightly different problems in that we have the welfare state so we don't have the grinding poverty that will always cause unrest and dissatisfaction. Our main problem is dissaffected youths who feel they are discriminated against and who rebel against their parents many of whom they resent for bringing them to the UK. West Indian mothers are known for their discipline yet their sons are still in prison, in gangs and are dying in fights.

I think you hit the nail on the head with part of your statement. Rather than get all huffy, did you stop to think that things are different due to the fact that we live in two different countries? The part I disagree with is where you mentioned blaming the parents. Who are you supposed to blame? Lets not sugar coat things and blame someone else for a kids lack of discipline. Its the parents #1 responsibility to raise and teach their kid(s) solid, decent values. Apparently, certain parents are lacking in the department.

Before the Second World War the rich in this country were very rich and the poor very poor, slums were rife, people were still dying of cholera, polio and TB. Children didn't have shoes, families packed into single rooms, the very worst kind of deprivation and poverty. However while crimes like theft etc were still rife, the violent type of random crime we are discussing was unheard of. So what changed? The slums were knocked down and council (public) housing estates were built everywhere, the NHS was formed, free medical care for everyone. More schools were opened and expectations became higher. Everyone wanted a car, a house, nice clothes and people were being promised more and more by governments, advertisers and businesses anxious for your money. Credit became easy to get so everyone began buying on the hire purchase schemes. Consumerism took hold instead of ethics and values, over here Maggie Thatcher and the 'greed is good' lot took over but it didn't work for everyone.To keep the consumer society going there was a cost, in this country it was unemployment, the closing of the coal mines, factories closing as they went to the Far East for cheaper labour.The government changed the schools curriculum to make it easier to pass exams but the children learned that there was now nothing for them when they left school only the dole queue. The credit was now turning to debt, there was no hope of a job to pay anything off but people still expected to have everything they saw on the tele. They started thinking that society owed them a living and they owed nothing back in return. Political correctness crept in with subsequent governments, the police hamstrung.The ecomony has picked up there are jobs again but people don't want to take them now.They want the get rich quick route of apprearing on X factor and Big Brother type programmes. It's their right now to do this.

So now in the housing estates you have feral gangs, drug dealers who make more money than I will see in a lifetime and an indifference to other human beings. Casual violence is accepted, hell the governments do it, what's happening in Iraq, Afghanistan? We just drop loads on bombs on people, kill thousands of families, good example? Soldiers who we think should be the good guys as they're ours massacre villagers, men women and children. Police shoot down peace protesters, prisoners are held without trial in Cuba, politicians who lie and cheat, who have blood on their hands and the only thing anyone is interested about is 'what's in it for me mate' You can champion capitalism as much as you like but it has a lot to answer for. The weak will always lose out.

Ok rant over, I'm off to bed as I'm on early shift.

Its not the governments fault people can't raise their kids Tez, its the parents.

Mike