Bowing: eyes up or down?

[Tez3]

On the subject of handshakes, I recall an incident from almost 2 years ago. I was in Washington, DC for some work with USSOCOM. I met a particular desk officer from the Dept of State. It was clammy and one of the most limp wristed hand shake I've ever had. A handshake tells volumes about a person. I was always raised for a handshake to be firm but not crushing as that's confrontational. I've hand shook with some Easterners and their handshakes tend to be soft but I just take that as part of their non-confrontational cultures.

I think we tend to think a handshake should say something about a person. That limp wristed clammy handshake may be merely because that person had RSI of the wrist or elbow besides that desk officer could be shaking hands with a hundred people a day, not a pleasant thought if they are all 'firm'. Politicians have been schooled on how to make their handshakes look right because of this very thing of handshakes supposingly meaning something and look at them!

 

[Koshiki]

Even the head nod up is very regional and has to be read with the rest of the body language...That's more of a "what's up" while a nod down is "respect".

It's actually not that different here, I don't think. A nod down is very definitely respectful, while the nod up can be in an informal, "what's up" sort of way, but as you say, it's body language and facial expression dependent, and can be much more of a social challenge as well.

Carl Sagan wrote a book of his speculations on human psychology, entitled The Serpents of Eden. As a cosmologist, I think his knowledge of the subject is probably that of an interested layman, but his therefore largely unconventional ideas were pretty entertaining and thought provoking. I don't think he talked about the head-up nod, but I do remember a longish ramble about social groups in pack animals, lowering the head in submission and defense (as in dogs, wolves, primates, etc), to avoid a dominance battle, to maintain social peace, and the relationship with the variety of independently developed bows across the world, all of which seem to center around lowering the height of the head, generally the lower the higher the rank differential.

As I said, I don't think he talked about head up nods, but from that view it's interesting to think of them as a bit of a reverse bow. If a bow is more or less related to demonstrating your respect for and in some respects submission to another individual, a head-up nod is somewhat of a denial that they are in any way above you. Which, I think, would explain its place as an extremely informal greeting among friends and equals, nearly a quiet, inoffensive assertion of dominance. In some ways making it more like a hand shake, which can certainly be an assertion of dominance for many, and a defense of position for many more. Which I personally like.

Not to say I don't bow in any situation where it is expected, and how is expected. Whatever a bow may signify in terms of respect, not to bow as called for when it's the norm is just plain disrespectful.

 

[Koshiki]

On a side note, the only time I really believe I can truly tell anything meaningful about someone from a hand shake is when they clearly view it as an opportunity to demonstrate their impressive grip strength, and thus their absolute silverback status.

 

[kuniggety]

I think we tend to think a handshake should say something about a person. That limp wristed clammy handshake may be merely because that person had RSI of the wrist or elbow besides that desk officer could be shaking hands with a hundred people a day, not a pleasant thought if they are all 'firm'. Politicians have been schooled on how to make their handshakes look right because of this very thing of handshakes supposingly meaning something and look at them!

Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.

 

[Koshiki]

Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.

Although I have this completely irrational loathing of the handshake wherein the other person cuts the grip short by pinch gripping gently on to your fingers, sort of in a kiss-the-ring kind of position, and then tugs up and down a few times.

I know some people do it to avoid jerks who want to play finger crushy-crunchy, but on the whole, it's just so unsatisfying!

 

[Gnarlie]

Although I have this completely irrational loathing of the handshake wherein the other person cuts the grip short by pinch gripping gently on to your fingers, sort of in a kiss-the-ring kind of position, and then tugs up and down a few times.

I know some people do it to avoid jerks who want to play finger crushy-crunchy, but on the whole, it's just so unsatisfying!

I demand a do-over. It's the only way these wet-fishers will learn. [emoji14]

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Tez3]

Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.

Thing is you are talking men to men handshakes, men shake hands with women completely differently! I've had the bone crushers too, the easiest thing is to move your first two fingers to go up his wrist and that stops the 'crush. My instructor taught me that and it works too.

 

[Gnarlie]

Thing is you are talking men to men handshakes, men shake hands with women completely differently! I've had the bone crushers too, the easiest thing is to move your first two fingers to go up his wrist and that stops the 'crush. My instructor taught me that and it works too.

That or carry around a fake mannequin hand and slap that in there at the last second.

I actually threw a job interview once because of the way the interviewer wet fished me on arrival. I am against hand crushing, but the other extreme is nauseating. A totally dead, cold set of fingers, no life or warmth at all, accompanied by an insipid thin lipped fake smile using only the mouth and not the eyes. A handshake says a lot about how someone values the interaction. Couldn't face working for someone like that, she would have been my new boss. First impressions count both ways.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't get this "don't trust your opponent so don't lower your eyes stuff."

If you are competing in an environment where bows are employed, there are also rules. Your opponent is not going to attack while you are bowing.

And frankly, if you do not respect your opponent and trust him or her to follow the rules of the match, bow out and go home.

 

[Gnarlie]

I agree Bill Mattocks, the 'never take you eyes off your opponent' meme has been around as long as I can remember. I think it might have started with Kung Fu movies, possibly a Bruce Lee line, and so many people still believe it.

If you are involved in a pre-agreed sport fight with rules, there is no reason not to think that your opponent will attack you during your bow. If you are in an actual fight where you cannot trust your opponent, then you won't be bowing anyway. The whole keeping eye contact idea is hogwash to me if it is based on mistrust rather than cultural convention.

 

[Buka]

I don't get this "don't trust your opponent so don't lower your eyes stuff."

If you are competing in an environment where bows are employed, there are also rules. Your opponent is not going to attack while you are bowing.

And frankly, if you do not respect your opponent and trust him or her to follow the rules of the match, bow out and go home.

It's a cultural practice particular to our style, all part of the "defend yourself at all times" mentality.
It really doesn't have anything to do with trust, just tactics.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's a cultural practice particular to our style, all part of the "defend yourself at all times" mentality.
It really doesn't have anything to do with trust, just tactics.

I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with.

I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training.

From my point of view, sparring in the dojo is a teaching-learning give and take that has nothing to do with winning or losing. We hone each other by honestly applying techniques on each other to both test our grasp of the technique as well as to give our partner the opportunity to apply their defense of it, and so on. Why would we not bow with our eyes down, it is an opportunity to show our respect for our partner's willingness to assist us in our improvement?

The thought of not trusting a fellow karateka not to attack us seems alien to me.

 

[Buka]

I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with.

I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training.

From my point of view, sparring in the dojo is a teaching-learning give and take that has nothing to do with winning or losing. We hone each other by honestly applying techniques on each other to both test our grasp of the technique as well as to give our partner the opportunity to apply their defense of it, and so on. Why would we not bow with our eyes down, it is an opportunity to show our respect for our partner's willingness to assist us in our improvement?

The thought of not trusting a fellow karateka not to attack us seems alien to me.

Again, it has nothing to do with trust, just a tactical awareness practiced from day one.

The bow itself, is a sign of respect, but the smallest sign of respect. Respect comes from actions, from everything one does in and out of the dojo. In a dojo that uses a bow, everyone bows, they do not have the choice not to.

You say -
"I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with."

Ah, but you did just question it, sir.

And "I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training."

You suppose wrong. And frankly, I find you a little too green to be supposing anything about we do, rookie.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thank you for the reminder. You are quite right. Adios.

 

[Buka]

Bill's posts always make me think. Deeply, more often than not.

You know what the most difficult part of being an instructor is? It's when a student dies. Yes, I know we are all heading there at the same rate, a day at a time, but if you teach long enough, sooner or later you'll lose a student. I've lost dozens over the decades, and it's always tough. Some from old age, some from disease, some by car or motorcycle accident, one was murdered in cold blood. (I was asked by his dad to give the eulogy, one of several eulogies over the years.)

The majority of my students have been of the Christian faith. Because the region we live has historically been Christian over the years. So there's usually a wake and a funeral. Back in the early seventies we lost a student to complications from pneumonia. At his wake, one of the students approached the casket and bowed. (before he kneeled at the altar and blessed himself.) The Aunt of the deceased later asked him why he bowed to her nephew. He said, "Because I love him very much, we've been bowing to each other for years and this is the last opportunity I have to honor him in that way." She cried and hugged him for a couple minutes.

We've been doing that for over forty years now. Same thing at the gravesight at the funeral. We don't do it as a group, we just do it. And when we do - our eyes are always front, never lowered. Because it is not a matter of trust, it's just the way we bow. It is our etiquette and protocol. Ours, nobody elses.

 

[Paul_D]

If we bow eyes down we get told off. We are told "eyes up", just in case ;-)

 

[JowGaWolf]

On a side note, the only time I really believe I can truly tell anything meaningful about someone from a hand shake is when they clearly view it as an opportunity to demonstrate their impressive grip strength, and thus their absolute silverback status.

Yeah, those type of handshakes are full of energy that screams, "I dominate you. Know your place."

 

[Gnarlie]

Yeah, those type of handshakes are full of energy that screams, "I dominate you. Know your place."

I strongly dislike it when people offer their hand palm down, forcing me to go palm up. A handshake should be vertical, and the palm down thing is just a power thing. Eugh. I have asked directly before 'are you wanting to shake my hand or are you offering your manicure for inspection?'

I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.

Oh and people who don't know when to stop.

 

[Koshiki]

I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.

...Ulp. I maaaay be somewhat of a shoulder grabber. Alternately a shake and hug combo, if i really like you...

Hand shake only is for when I'm uncomfortable, and therefore on my best behaviour.

 

[Steve]

I strongly dislike it when people offer their hand palm down, forcing me to go palm up. A handshake should be vertical, and the palm down thing is just a power thing. Eugh. I have asked directly before 'are you wanting to shake my hand or are you offering your manicure for inspection?'

I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.

Oh and people who don't know when to stop.

Th shoulder grab is how I ensure you don't try to move in for an unwelcome hug.