Bowing: eyes up or down?

[Gnarlie]

I recently returned from Korea, having spent a lot of time in the company of Koreans. I specifically discussed this point with a number of the Koreans I met. In South Korea, when you bow, you bend the upper body forward, and the head forward. You do not maintain eye contact because it will be taken as a challenge / invitation to fight. If the intended target of the bow does not see the top of your head, you're not playing it safe.

The depth of the bow depends on the relationship between the people. I would have to bow deeply to prospective parents-in-law, for example, but a cursory head-bob may be enough for long- term peers. A respected elder may be bowed to deeply, and merely return an almost imperceptible nod without breaking eye contact. It is context dependent, but there is never eye contact during the bow when the relationship is equal or when respectful deference is required.

These general rules also apply to the Taekwondo structure. Age and experience are to be respected, and students should never maintain eye contact when bowing, even to their peers, as respect for all is paramount.

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[Tez3]

I would have to bow deeply to prospective parents-in-law

Mmm, how many prospective parents-in-law have you had?

 

[Gnarlie]

Mmm, how many prospective parents-in-law have you had?

Just an example, I don't believe in marriage.

 

[kuniggety]

I just pointed out how many times a bow is used in modern life, actors, musicians, dancers etc even in school and amateur productions bow. I also said in countries with royalty as well as in Judaism. You can't say 'we don't bow anymore' when you mean you don't bow can you? Just because you don't think you do doesn't mean it's an obsolete custom. You also can't say you have never bowed and then that you bow in martial arts lol.

I think we're just talking apples and oranges. It's a custom reserved for special reasons not daily use. It's not a Western cultural custom to bow to a stranger. And that's what I meant when I said I never bowed. I never bowed in a Western cultural situation. In a martial arts setting it was in reverence to Eastern culture.

 

[Tez3]

I think we're just talking apples and oranges. It's a custom reserved for special reasons not daily use. It's not a Western cultural custom to bow to a stranger. And that's what I meant when I said I never bowed. I never bowed in a Western cultural situation. In a martial arts setting it was in reverence to Eastern culture.

Everyday bowing as a greeting has fallen out of use due to better hygiene and disease prevention ( that's why bowing and curtsying was the norm in the West btw), it's safe to shake hands and kiss cheeks. The custom of bowing though is common in the theatre, dance ( I curtsy and bow a lot in Scottish country dancing and yes quite often to strangers), barristers in court here don't shake hands they bow. It's also common in countries as I said that have a monarchy. Just because you haven't bowed it doesn't mean they rest of the world hasn't or doesn't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To look someone directly in their eye is the same as challenging a person, but it only applies to those of the same sex, or a younger person looking at an older person. The closest I get to a bow in my daily life is a head nod either up or down depending on where I am. I don't mind doing gestures of respect because I don't want to offend people. My culture is more flexible in terms of showing respect. Don't stare me directly in the eye and don't try to give me an alpha male handshake and everything else is fine. I'm not a fan of the cheek kisses.

 

[kuniggety]

barristers in court here don't shake hands they bow. It's also common in countries as I said that have a monarchy. Just because you haven't bowed it doesn't mean they rest of the world hasn't or doesn't.

Maybe I'm just uncouth I had to look up what a barrister was by the way... It's those wig wearing guys.

 

[kuniggety]

I'm not a fan of the cheek kisses.

As a fellow Murikan, I think it's because we just didn't grow up with it.

 

[geezer]

As a fellow Murikan, I think it's because we just didn't grow up with it.

Wail, Ahmuh 'Mairkin too, and Ah see it kinda differnt.

I still nod my head in a nonverbal greeting to acquaintances when I pass them on the street or in a corridor. And what is a nod of recognition if not an attenuated bow?


BTW I work at a high school with a Latino (mainly Mexican American) population. I've noticed that older Anglos usually nod in acknowledgement or greeting by lowering the head while the Latinos give a short, crisp upward nod. Both maintain eye contact as is expected in our culture. I can nod bi-lingually!!

 

[kuniggety]

Wail, Ahmuh 'Mairkin too, and Ah see it kinda differnt.

I still nod my head in a nonverbal greeting to acquaintances when I pass them on the street or in a corridor. And what is a nod of recognition if not an attenuated bow?

That was in reference to the cheek kissing. I nod quite often too... Probably to the extreme because of me living in Asia for so long. It's just quite less formal than a full bow.

 

[geezer]

That was in reference to the cheek kissing. I nod quite often too... Probably to the extreme because of me living in Asia for so long. It's just quite less formal than a full bow.

Hey Kuniggety, if people think bowing "correctly" is tough to do according to the varying cultural norms of countries where it is widely practiced, what about handshakes?

I mean, have you ever noticed how oddly many people from bowing cultures shake hands? I learned a good American handshake from my Dad whenI was a little kid. Basically he taught me a man's handshake is direct and firm, without being overbearingly strong, typically one vertical shake, at the most two, lasting about a second or so and accompanied by a direct look in the other person's eyes, etc. etc. There's really a lot of subtlety there, depending on your age, status, the social context and so forth. In fact a plain, old-school handshake can be just as complex as other cultures bowing customs.

That's why so many immigrants don't get it right. Here are a few examples. My auto mechanic is Vietnamese but has lived here with an Anglo-American stepfather since the 70s. He has very strong hands, yet still shakes hands with a limp wrist and lowered eyes. The stocky Mayan immigrant from Central America who trimmed my trees last month had a very similar "soft" handshake. As did my old sifu who hated hand shaking, and felt it impolite when a seminar student introduced his young son who shook the master's hand like a perfect little gentleman. Sifu reprimanded the father and son saying, "That's just what the rude little street urchins do in Hong Kong. They come up to strangers, stick out their hand and say, Ow ya doin mate? ...before trying to sell you something".

Now if doing a standard handshake isn't confusing enough, try keeping up with all the evolving new ways of shaking hands, from high fives, "giving some skin", to fist bumps. I honestly suck at hipster handshaking. I tell my young students that I only do the "old white-guy handshake" and that's hard enough to get right. Or fist bumps. They're good. But then which is better? Horizontal fist or vertical? Wait, I believe we've already done a thread or two on that subject alone!

 

[Tez3]

In West Africa where the Ebola epidemic has been raging people have stopped shaking hands completely, as I said before shaking hands is a relatively new thing which came as hygiene and health improved. It is though an old custom dating back to ancient Grecian times but when Europe began having great plagues bowing became the polite thing to do. However in polite society one wore gloves at all times which meant not shaking hands with a bare hand something the Queen doesn't do, you will nearly always see her in gloves.
Around Europe you will still see people bowing, waiters at some establishments, men when kissing a lady's hand ( correctly -not actually touching the hand with the lips, it's symbolic) in official circles often a bow before presenting something, very like the bowing of the East.
In the UK barristers aren't the only ones who bow in court they, the solicitors and clerks also bow to the judge. In the House of Commons the Speaker bows when entering or leaving.

 

[Buka]

When in someone elses dojo we do what their dojo protocol calls for. Always and without exception.

In our dojo - I catch you bow with your eyes down you'll be doing pushups until you puke.

 

[Tez3]

Tomorrow is Remembrance Sunday here in the UK, when we use a neck bow ( the military bow then salute) after laying our poppy wreaths even the Queen and Royal Family do. I will be tomorrow. It's customary as well to bow one's head for any silence for the dead. On Wednesday the 11th the country will halt at 1100hr for 2 mins when we bow our heads. Please don't say it's not a bow I will be offended I promise you.

 

[Koshiki]

I think the take away is, it depends completely on where and with whom you are.

A note on head nods. At least in New England, I think there's a definite split between the down nod and the up nod. The down nod is more like a bow, in that it's a relatively polite acknowledgement of another person, and if relatively cursory, still one hundred percent friendly and passive. I might down-nod to strangers, to elderly people, to just a cop that glanced over at me.

The up nod is very much different. It has the same basic function of acknowledgment, but it's far more aggressive. Instead of assuring the other person of your passivity and polite respect for one another, it has a variety of flavors depending on the situation, the jerkiness of the movement, your facial expression, your overall body language; ranging from a slightly cocky and overly assertive down-nod equivalent; all the way to an outright water-hole challenge of the other guy's machismo. I would never up nod when passing an elderly lady at the grocery store, in other words.

Even small regional changes can entail slight differences. About two years ago I moved to my current place in a pretty nice, solidly middle class area. In my previous area, young people pretty much always shook hands with the thumb webbing locked, and the fingers wrapped around the back of the other person hand, usually accompanied by a solid pat on the shoulder, a one armed hug, and sometimes followed with a peel-apart and fist bump.

After moving here, all the young people naturally go for the formal business style handshake, even in low key social environments, resulting in a lot of awkward finger grappling when I was first meeting people. I assumed one handshake was the norm, they assumed a different one. And we're talking to cities 30 miles apart in the same state.

Once we get talking about the insulated little sub-communities that martial arts schools are, customs are just far too varied to make any sweeping decisions about how something should be done. Sure, one school bows out of deference to say, Japanese culture. Another bows to signify the supreme awesomeness of the instructor. Another bows to demonstrate mutual respect. Another doesn't bow. Another bows just 'cause, well, I dunno, it's just a thing we do.

 

[donald1]

Im sure every school has some opinion on this; if you are at their school and the instructor tells you which way to do it do it their way at their school. Yes you should trust your opponent but I still think you should look at your opponent. But I wont argue if the instructor says otherwise

 

[Tez3]

Another bows to signify the supreme awesomeness of the instructor

I wonder how I can persuade my student to do that bow?

I must say though and I was thinking this before when reading your posts on other threads, I do enjoy what you write and how you write it.
Where I live there's no nods up or down, you are greeted universally with 'nar then'.

 

[kuniggety]

Tomorrow is Remembrance Sunday here in the UK, when we use a neck bow ( the military bow then salute) after laying our poppy wreaths even the Queen and Royal Family do. I will be tomorrow. It's customary as well to bow one's head for any silence for the dead. On Wednesday the 11th the country will halt at 1100hr for 2 mins when we bow our heads. Please don't say it's not a bow I will be offended I promise you.
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As you said, that's a bowing of the head... Not really a nod.

 

[kuniggety]

Hey Kuniggety, if people think bowing "correctly" is tough to do according to the varying cultural norms of countries where it is widely practiced, what about handshakes?

On the subject of handshakes, I recall an incident from almost 2 years ago. I was in Washington, DC for some work with USSOCOM. I met a particular desk officer from the Dept of State. It was clammy and one of the most limp wristed hand shake I've ever had. A handshake tells volumes about a person. I was always raised for a handshake to be firm but not crushing as that's confrontational. I've hand shook with some Easterners and their handshakes tend to be soft but I just take that as part of their non-confrontational cultures.

 

[kuniggety]

The up nod is very much different. It has the same basic function of acknowledgment, but it's far more aggressive. Instead of assuring the other person of your passivity and polite respect for one another, it has a variety of flavors depending on the situation, the jerkiness of the movement, your facial expression, your overall body language; ranging from a slightly cocky and overly assertive down-nod equivalent; all the way to an outright water-hole challenge of the other guy's machismo. I would never up nod when passing an elderly lady at the grocery store, in other words.
.

Even the head nod up is very regional and has to be read with the rest of the body language. It's very common among Pacific Islanders - Chamorro, Hawaiian, Filipino, etc. it's done with a smile and a "hey brah". Some gang banger in the US with a straight face does it and it's meant for intimidation. I've always been around Pacific Islanders (my wife is a Filipina and half of my old BJJ school was Chamorro) so I use the head nod a lot like them. That's more of a "what's up" while a nod down is "respect".