Boshi/Shito Ken Strikes

[Chris Parker]

Seriously though, How many kata do you need to have a good answer for everything(within reason)?

That depends entirely on what you're looking to have answers for, really. For example, I could put together a program for dealing with the bulk of unarmed assaults, covering the majority of situations, in about 10 or 15 kata, but it won't then deal with groups, verbal de-escalation, knife assaults, firearms, impact weapons, use of weapons, and so on. If you look at the various Ryu-ha, Gyokko for instance has about 50 (including Kihon Gata), and is very comprehensive in what it covers (striking, grappling, kicking, short and long weapon defences, intuition methods, and so on), but there is no group work, no ground work, and so on. Koto Ryu has no kick defences, no group, and no intuition. Kukishinden has no weapon defence, Togakure has no strike or kick defence, but does have group defence and intuition, as well as multiple weapon uses. A modern look at things will have a very different set of requirements to the traditional methods, and so on.

One example may be our knife training programs. We have about four complete "knife" programs, for different situations, including reverse grip entrapping work, knife against thrusting weapons (such as bayonets), tactical approaches to knife etc, but a few years ago I actually developed a new one, as it dealt with knife in a way that wasn't covered in the other material we have. That's certainly not saying that the programs were lacking, in and of themselves, just that there was a situation that wasn't covered. So how many knife programs are needed? Honestly, it depends on where you may expect it to be used. I'd give a different program to a military person than I would a civilian, for instance.

yeah that's what I was looking for, kata which had Tori delivering body strikes but to avoid being inundated with 15,000 kata I specified moving forward 45, checking with the trailing hand, counterstriking above the shoulders and then delivering a solid body-shot.

You may be looking for something a little too specific, then. I can think of kata that have elements of a number of the aspects you mention, but not all of it. It's like asking if anyone knows a good movie... which is 1 hour 49 minutes long, is an action-adventure, with a love triangle between Bruce Willis, Kiera Knightley, and Meryl Streep. Oh, and it's in French.

And again, if you're picking out exactly what you want the kata to have, then you're possibly missing out on what the extant kata have to teach.

Hmm, which Ryu? that's a good question, I don't know enough about any of the ryu to say.

And that's kinda the point. You're asking for something without knowing what is actually out there. The kata are the way they are for very good reasons, designing ones that are what you would want them to be is ignoring the reasons they are the way they are.

Bear in mind that creating your own training programs for modern self defence training at home isn't in and of itself bad, provided you are properly informed on how such things need to be designed, but looking for kata to fill a specific need or desire like this is not going to be very fruitful.

 

[Stealthy]

You may be looking for something a little too specific.

That answers my question perfectly.

And again, if you're picking out exactly what you want the kata to have, then you're possibly missing out on what the extant kata have to teach.

Oh, I am definately missing out on what the kata have to teach. Mainly because I don't have many, that's why I asked.

You're asking for something without knowing what is actually out there. The kata are the way they are for very good reasons, designing ones that are what you would want them to be is ignoring the reasons they are the way they are.

It is not my intention to redesign Ninjutsu kata.

I don't have enough Ninjutsu kata to use and I have problems that need answers.

ie: the program I have at the moment has nine kata 3 moving back and away twice then back in, 3 moving straight in and 3 muto-dori. There are 5 defences against head strikes two haymakers, two thrusts and one knife hand, one defence against a kick then punch and 3 defences against sword attacks.

It is a great Ninjustu program and all but how on earth am I supposed to build a solid defense with that? there is no defense against a straight body punch, no defense against a hook body shot, no defense against a leg kick etc etc etc...Since I have buckleys chance of knowing if I should even be using any of the kata against body shots or if there might be "better" kata to use it leaves me in an awkward position.

So what I do is mix in a little karate, the opponent attacks with low punch no problem, step to the right downward block and strike to the neck with knife hand, follow it up with a strong punch to the floating ribs. I know its not Ninjutsu, it's not even a modified Ninjutsu kata, sure one might say I have drawn on some Ninjutsu for inspiration but it is decidedly not Ninjutsu....I would rather be doing Ninjutsu though, if there are no kata that can resolve this issue then that's cool but I always thought Ninjutsu was worth more than that. As you've pointed out I don't know crap about what is and isn't out there so I ask a question I learn something new. Hey, I wind up knowing more than I did before, it's all win for me.

So thanks for your time, you have been a great help. I really learn quite a lot from your posts.

 

[Chris Parker]

Knowing where you got the program from, and how they are designed, typically there is a single emphasis which links all the kata in the program with an underlying theme, so look to that as to why the kata are present there. For example I am presently writing a Tai Sabaki program to present here in Melbourne, and all the kata involved there have a common theme of Tai Sabaki. Each program is specific to it's theme, so don't expect any to have all the answers.

Honestly, in order to get the results you are looking for, you will need to attend class again. Mixing in karate might not really give you the result you are after either, frankly. You will probably find that most of the "straight attack" patterns can be easily adapted to a low-level punch, but that is something you should be getting personal guidance on. Without that, frankly I'd probably suggest even putting the notes away. You seem to be looking for things that aren't there, and are approaching things from a rather off direction.

I wish you the best with your training, but honestly you're just moving further and further from what you were actually taught, it may be best to make a decision as to whether you want to return and study properly, or keep going with your newer direction, which will take you further from anything to do with Ninjutsu-related arts, other than some superficially similar aspects.

 

[Stealthy]

Fair enough.

 

[Supra Vijai]

It's like asking if anyone knows a good movie... which is 1 hour 49 minutes long, is an action-adventure, with a love triangle between Bruce Willis, Kiera Knightley, and Meryl Streep. Oh, and it's in French.

I almost looked this up.... sigh...

 

[skuggvarg]

I would rather be doing Ninjutsu though, if there are no kata that can resolve this issue then that's cool but I always thought Ninjutsu was worth more than that.

Stealthy, if you are a beginner I would recommend you continue to practise the diagonally backward movement combined with Jodan / Gedan Uke Nagashi (high / low recieving form). Forget moving 45° forward at the time. The basics should be ichimonji and you need to do it for a long time until you get it. Here is a little training advice for you to test yourself:

-Can you stand in a correct Ichimonji without your back getting bent and / or your kneew leaning inwards?

-When in Ichimonji, can you lift your front leg witout redistributing weight and without moving your body up or down?

-When doing a diagonally backwards shift, can you do it at "full speed" without loosing balance? Can you immediately after your move counter-kick with your front foot without moving your body?

-Can you execute a forward lunge punch from Ichimonji and hit your opponent before he moves out of your target zone?

-Can you follow up a lunge punch with a new punch or kick immediately after the initial attack?

These things are very, very important and extremely basic when it comes to ninjutsu (bujinkan ryu-ha).

Regards / Skuggvarg

 

[Stealthy]

Thanks for the tips Skuggvarg, I could definitely do all of the things you mentioned better than I do them now.

 

[Razor]

It is a great Ninjustu program and all but how on earth am I supposed to build a solid defense with that? there is no defense against a straight body punch, no defense against a hook body shot, no defense against a leg kick etc etc etc...Since I have buckleys chance of knowing if I should even be using any of the kata against body shots or if there might be "better" kata to use it leaves me in an awkward position.

Isn't that the point of training to a higher level? They might not all be there at first, but they come in at later levels. My class have definitely been shown defences against body punches (like Hicho no kata) and throwing and blocking defences for kicks. I don't think they're in the Kihon Happo, but they are in there somewhere at a later level (someone please correct me if that's wrong).

 

[Stealthy]

Isn't that the point of training to a higher level? They might not all be there at first, but they come in at later levels. My class have definitely been shown defences against body punches (like Hicho no kata) and throwing and blocking defences for kicks. I don't think they're in the Kihon Happo, but they are in there somewhere at a later level (someone please correct me if that's wrong).

Please don't misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with my Sensei's methods nor the style, there are in fact countless ways to deal with any possible attack. Certainly I have the means to accurately alter kata to suit slightly different attacks without losing most of the essense. The trouble is in many instances there may actually be kata better suited for the situation which take into consideration elements I may not have perceived. The fact is I don't know all of the Kata, I don't even know how to discover all of the kata, I need to jump through hoops just to learn one new kata. So that's all I was doing, asking for more kata, if someone wants to tell me that's great, if not well that's cool too.

Actually I really like Sensei Parkers advice. For Eleven years I have endured "Pressure" to master Ninjutsu forms and I think it is time to just let it go for a while. I will sink myself back into karate for a month or two and completely forget I ever did Ninjutsu. In a couple of months I shall return to the Ninjutsu school with the mind that I have forgotten everything and start over from scratch.

It has always bothered me that in Ninjutsu we never do any sparring and it is very painful to see that ability go rusty. Since I truly offered everything over to the school I have not indulged in karate for eleven years. Once I get back to a high level again and feel like I've got my fix of sparring(I just love it, it's why I do Martial Arts) then I can commit back to the school completely again. So great advice Sensei Parker, I've packed my notes into my trusty ninja chest, padlocked it up, reduced "the pressure" and am really looking forward to walking into "Mysterious Unnamed Ninjutsu Master's" class and looking at him through the eyes of someone who knows absolutely nothing then taking in everything I see. Not many of you know who I am talking about but those who do, understand how great it will feel, he truly is a living legend. To put it another way...the time has come for me to completely "empty the cup".

 

[Razor]

Please don't misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with my Sensei's methods nor the style, there are in fact countless ways to deal with any possible attack. Certainly I have the means to accurately alter kata to suit slightly different attacks without losing most of the essense. The trouble is in many instances there may actually be kata better suited for the situation which take into consideration elements I may not have perceived. The fact is I don't know all of the Kata, I don't even know how to discover all of the kata, I need to jump through hoops just to learn one new kata. So that's all I was doing, asking for more kata, if someone wants to tell me that's great, if not well that's cool too.

Actually I really like Sensei Parkers advice. For Eleven years I have endured "Pressure" to master Ninjutsu forms and I think it is time to just let it go for a while. I will sink myself back into karate for a month or two and completely forget I ever did Ninjutsu. In a couple of months I shall return to the Ninjutsu school with the mind that I have forgotten everything and start over from scratch.

It has always bothered me that in Ninjutsu we never do any sparring and it is very painful to see that ability go rusty. Since I truly offered everything over to the school I have not indulged in karate for eleven years. Once I get back to a high level again and feel like I've got my fix of sparring(I just love it, it's why I do Martial Arts) then I can commit back to the school completely again. So great advice Sensei Parker, I've packed my notes into my trusty ninja chest, padlocked it up, reduced "the pressure" and am really looking forward to walking into "Mysterious Unnamed Ninjutsu Master's" class and looking at him through the eyes of someone who knows absolutely nothing then taking in everything I see. Not many of you know who I am talking about but those who do, understand how great it will feel, he truly is a living legend. To put it another way...the time has come for me to completely "empty the cup".

Ah, right, I see. It is a bit unfortunate to practice martial arts and not spar. We don't do it much in my dojo, and I've never done it before, but may do some MMA at a later level if it fits in.

 

[Chris Parker]

Right, to clear up this sparring thing, there are some very real reasons we don't do what most consider "sparring" to be (ie two people face off and try to "fight" each other, both trying to attack and defend at the same time, and generally outperform the other person). And they have nothing to do with the old "too deadly to spar" thing (which is a crock, to be frank).

The primary reason we don't engage in that form of training is that it goes directly against the skills, strategies, and tactics that we are trying to instill in the practitioners. We are trying to instill a skill-set of immediate, powerful response, with the aim to escape and move away from the situation as soon as possible, and sparring doesn't allow that. It insists that you stay and fight, when we are teaching to escape and evade. It teaches to continue with long bouts, while we are teaching to end things quickly, and so on.

That said, we do engage in the Japanese form of sparring, referred to as "Randori" (different to the usage of the term in Judo, but similar to the usage in Aikido, if that helps). This is a type of "free response" training, and starts of by having a couple of related, or similar pre-trained and pre-determined responses to a pre-determined attack (for example, three different possible "answers" to a lunge punch attack), and the defender responds with one of the responses without deciding which. That way the attack is always going to be true, as the attacker doesn't know which way the defender is going to go. From there the attacks become random as well, initially with only a few possibilities, and moving up to a final form of completely random attacks and completely random responses. This way we maintain the ability to reinforce the tactics and methods taught in the art while giving all the benefits of sparring without the drawbacks.

 

[Stealthy]

Right, to clear up this sparring thing, there are some very real reasons we don't do what most consider "sparring" to be (ie two people face off and try to "fight" each other, both trying to attack and defend at the same time, and generally outperform the other person). And they have nothing to do with the old "too deadly to spar" thing (which is a crock, to be frank).

The primary reason we don't engage in that form of training is that it goes directly against the skills, strategies, and tactics that we are trying to instill in the practitioners. We are trying to instill a skill-set of immediate, powerful response, with the aim to escape and move away from the situation as soon as possible, and sparring doesn't allow that. It insists that you stay and fight, when we are teaching to escape and evade. It teaches to continue with long bouts, while we are teaching to end things quickly, and so on.

That said, we do engage in the Japanese form of sparring, referred to as "Randori" (different to the usage of the term in Judo, but similar to the usage in Aikido, if that helps). This is a type of "free response" training, and starts of by having a couple of related, or similar pre-trained and pre-determined responses to a pre-determined attack (for example, three different possible "answers" to a lunge punch attack), and the defender responds with one of the responses without deciding which. That way the attack is always going to be true, as the attacker doesn't know which way the defender is going to go. From there the attacks become random as well, initially with only a few possibilities, and moving up to a final form of completely random attacks and completely random responses. This way we maintain the ability to reinforce the tactics and methods taught in the art while giving all the benefits of sparring without the drawbacks.

"Randori" is what I would call "sparring", what boxers and MMA players call "sparring" I would call "fighting with gloves on". To a degree I would define "sparring" as really just very complex "drilling" but sufficiently complex that it ceases to be mindless repetition and moves more so into the realm of "free response" training. Sparring allows you to condition your body from being hit, condition your strikes such that with the gloves off to an unconditioned opponent they would be "quite painful" strikes, condition the defenses so hits must be worked for. Sparring allows you to hone the reflexes of following up on a successful hit and if you want to "get away afterwards". It develops the ability to read weight distribution and ranges along with honing ways of getting in and out and working the flanks. Most importantly of all Sparring allows you to condition your "triggers" such that responses come out automatically when the right conditions are met.

Granted this is probably starting to get a little off topic but the way I train for sparring is to start off with light drills of single attacks to a single target on a specific attack vector(ie: haymaker to the head) while conditioning just one defense for that attack(rather than three) alternating right and left sides. Then work through all of the other key "triggers"(trailing hand haymaker/shuto ken/kicks to head/neck, straight punches/kicks to head/neck, haymaker lead hand to chest areas, haymaker trailing hand to chest areas, straight punches to chest areas, blah, blah, blah, ditto lower abdomen with hooks, uppercuts and straight punches, leg kicks...inside leg, outside leg, crescents....etc...etc...etc). This way everything gets worked a minimum number of times so favoured techniques don't over shadow others.

Then once sufficiently "warmed up" the attacks become unnominated while the defenses remain the same one response for each key trigger. If the Uki can launch an attack which your list of kata can't handle(and well) then the list is incomplete....Assuming however that your list is good you have one response for all possible attacks and can work on the triggers for them. The way I do it is the Uki attacks at the very limit of Tori's ability if Tori fails the defense the attack must be slowed down such that Tori can be successful but it is Uki's job to constantly push to the point of failure while trying not to go past it. With this level of training a very solid fighting ability can be "drawn out" of a person super quickly and there is nothing more enjoyable than lighting fast effective responses with hard deflections and strikes against lightning fast free form attacks. Sure it's not "fighting" but it's about as close as I think you can get to it in a safe environment.

The problem I see with having multiple responses for single triggers is "when the attack comes in a decision must be made" and even if it's the unconscious mind that makes it, the decision making process surely must waste time. Since in a self defense situation the opponent has no chance of "working you out" there is no real disadvantage of having a "most likely" defense....and if that "most likely"(most drilled) defense fails or is inappropriate for a particular situation and the unconscious mind is required to dig deep and pull something else out then you are merely in the same position as the person who doesn't highly polish their "best defenses" and relies on their unconscious responses for everything. If there are three really good defenses for a single trigger I would be more inclined to condition one to the point of perfection for a month then ditch it for the second and in a month ditch that one for the third..in the fourth month I may randomly pick one, so if the conditions are met it is the most likely to come out but if something wierd happens then the others are still there just below the surface.

Of course I know nothing about training the mind and maybe it is better to give it lots of conflicting responses and make it learn how to choose quicker. I guess if this is the case then it is probably worth doing both methods...sometimes sparring with one defense to highly polish physical triggers and build up autonomous responses...at other times doing the three conflicting responses method to train the mind making it better at pulling stuff out of the hat when "it" hits the fan.

All told I think we are both talking about the same thing, it's just I've never encountered it within Ninjutsu. It takes me just under an hour to warm up with just one defense for each key trigger before I can start full top speed free sparring so a three response per trigger warm up would be well over two hours before hitting paydirt and getting into free-form. Considering I'm usually knackered within two hours, it's not surprising I've never encountered Ninjutsu's version.

 

[Chris Parker]

Wow, uh, not sure where to start with all that....

First off, though you may refer to sparring and randori in that fashion, it may do to recognise that that is the opposite to the common usage. Next, honestly, that entire method you're describing seems unnecessarily convoluted, as well as quite literally going in the wrong direction. Then, the idea of "getting to" the free-form responce is more about the skill level attained, not about the amount of time in a particular training session, otherwise you'd never get to it. Honestly, I'd expect my seniors to be able to hit free-form (randori) pretty much straight away, depending on what we are covering (up to 10 or 15 minutes if the parameters need to be covered first). And lastly, it's spelt "Uke". (PS Read that last one with me being gentle and smiling, it's meant in good humour, but I don't like using smilies, so you get this long explaination.... phew!).

 

[Stealthy]

hehe good stuff, don't worry your humour is well received this end. Agreed on the whole common usage thing, I guess thats one of the real advantages or disadvantages however you want to look at it of an all styles welcome Martial Arts forum, a lot of us have totally different meanings for the same words. Sparring is one of those funny ones were there are so many different subtleties that it's virtually impossible to ensure everyone knows what you mean, I guess thats why all the variants get thrown around a lot like "light sparring", "free sparring", "full contact sparring" etc. Kata is another word easily misinterpreted, my usage of the word kata is perhaps more akin to "combo" but combo doesn't do it justice since the level of complexity within Ninjutsu kata goes well beyond the scope of the term "combo".

The "skill level" comment I agree with aswell. With a complete beginner I would free form 2-4 triggers (ie: left side high, right side high, left side low, right side low) with so few triggers the warm up doesn't take very long.

I use 3 main sets of triggers, the four quadrant trigger overlay previously described, a basic noughts and crosses board overlay which has nine hitboxes for the intermediate skill level and then for full blown all triggers work a nine grid line overlay(purely by coincidence it looks like the kuji kiri pattern) which thus has 12 hitboxes{for want of a better term I would say you need to "train one(kata) on each of the twelve levels(hitboxes)"}. You still have to repeat the whole grid for flanking left and right so with 12 allocations per side thats 24 executed kata to perform the full set once(assuming you are sticking to one facing, add more executions if you want to drill left foot forward and right foot forward, fortunately only a few kata are facing dependent). If you want different responses relative to whether they kick or punch then double that to 48 executions(24 kata moving left, the same 24 moving right). Throw in a basic set of responses for being grappled and a few muto dori kata and you have quite a list going...Since it is one response per trigger I would call this one "Style", as you mentioned you like three responses per trigger I would work that out as three seperate styles each with between 12-24 seperate kata excluding grappling defence and muto dori...."Convoluted", definitely, how about "over the top"?{insert smiley face here}.

The context of this type of workout "drill warmup and sparring session" is probably important to avoid misunderstanding. This type of workout is not meant to replace a normal workout or home training program but rather I use it as a special "pulling all the pieces together and using them workout" which has it's foundation in more traditional workouts and programs since it is from them that the pieces become available.

 

[ElfTengu]

Try Hiso Ken and build up to boshi/shito ken.

Two things to try: First, perhaps oversimplified, retract the thumb somewhat, punch initially with the knuckles, and then tilt the fist forward and use the thumb, quite effective into an area which is still registering the impact of the knuckles a millisecond before. Or Second, punch like a Fudo Ken but with a small amount of the thumb protruding so that the thumb and knuckles hit as near as damnit simultaneously but with more support for the thumb than a normal boshi ken provides.