Boshi/Shito Ken Strikes

[Razor]

I'm a beginner in Bujinkan, so forgive me if this is a silly question, but what exactly is the point of Boshi Ken strikes as used in techniques like Jumonji No Kamae?

If you can strike Uke in the ribs with your thumb, wouldn't a strike in a more critical area be more appropriate? Is this just to illustrate the movement but not to actually be used for self defence?

I understand that more training will clear up some questions like this, but some clarification now would be appreciated

 

[Katsujin-ken]

I'm a beginner in Bujinkan, so forgive me if this is a silly question, but what exactly is the point of Boshi Ken strikes as used in techniques like Jumonji No Kamae?

If you can strike Uke in the ribs with your thumb, wouldn't a strike in a more critical area be more appropriate? Is this just to illustrate the movement but not to actually be used for self defence?

I understand that more training will clear up some questions like this, but some clarification now would be appreciated

From personal experience, I will say this much: don't underestimate the boshiken. It's a nasty little strike if executed properly. My appreciation for boshiken is certainly high after having experienced it at my sensei's hands. Perhaps you may wish to ask your instructor for a fuller boshiken experience? :uhyeah:

 

[Razor]

From personal experience, I will say this much: don't underestimate the boshiken. It's a nasty little strike if executed properly. My appreciation for boshiken is certainly high after having experienced it at my sensei's hands. Perhaps you may wish to ask your instructor for a fuller boshiken experience? :uhyeah:

Not sure I would survive that! It does seem to be quite painful when done properly, I just can't help but think that some other attack would be a lot more effective than it. Especially in that particular pattern where someone is coming and punching you twice!

 

[Dean Whittle]

Please keep in mind that kata from the various scrolls represent a style of fighting from a particular place (Japan) and time in history. At that time a technique like jumonji using boshi ken to the specified targets made sense and were no doubt very effective. However, it's fair to say that the style of fighting has changed, and in some cases the techniques from feudal Japan may not be as effective against common contemporary attacks (think a left jab right cross combination, or a left and right hook combination).

If you feel that the technique is an effective defense to a modern style attack, even after discussing it with your instructor and hours and hours of training, what can be done is examine whether the tactics of the kata will work against a modern style attack. By that I mean that the technique is quite precise (against a step punch, step back 45 execute an uke nagashi, boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, fingers to eyes, step back - second step punch, slide back 45 execute uke nagashi, then boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, then fingers to eyes, step back.) But the tactics are a little more general, and open to change according to circumstance. The tactics, as I see them, for jumonji, are defend by moving off the primal line and block/counter strike using the same hand. Can those tactics be used against a modern-style attack?

All the best with your journey.

With respect

 

[Dean Whittle]

PS: the other thing to keep in mind is that warriors of the past did extensive hand conditioning to better prepare their hands for combat. This hand conditioning makes strikes like boshi ken, goshi ken etc very effective.

With respect

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

Ive often thought the same thing when practicing sunshin. and the chin no kata with the thumb strike to the ribs.
the thumb strike can be really painfull if used properly. ofcourse you have to condition your hands for these. and you will be able to put more power into a very precise spot. if your targeting is spot on than this strikes will do more damadge than say just a punch to the ribs. the thing with these are you need to target weak spots of the body to be effective. so knowing your Kyusho will help

I prefer to use a knuckle strike in place of the thumb strike thou. this is more of a kukishinden than gyoku ryu thou.

 

[Stealthy]

I've been looking for some good body shot kata to slip into my home training.

My Boshi-ken aren't all that great so I tend to punch to the solar plexus but it would be nice to use a proper kata.


Specifically I am looking for a kata with a few key elements. If the kata starts off moving back 45 once or twice that is cool but the key element needs to be.


Advancing forward 45 degrees to deflect with the trailing hand(ie: opponent steps in with the right foot attacking either my centreline or left side, evade forward right 45, check with left hand) virtually simultaneous with the evade and check is a fast disorient counter-strike to the face(ie: shako ken) step in with a powerful body shot(with the checking hand).

At the moment as in the example above I would evade right forward, check with the left, fast punch to the solar plexus with the right -> step in with the left foot to drive a max power solar plexus punch with the left -> and then just because I like it finish with a throw.

There are no variations on height or fancy targets in what I do and it would be cool to tech it up a bit. If Ninjutsu is anything it is ultra advanced sequencing and target selection so I figure there is probably already a kata or two that would fit the bill perfectly.

With Respect,
Stealthy.

 

[gregtca]

Why waste all that time movment , why not after moving frd to the right , just left punch / boshi to opponents solar plexus ???

Just a thought an a rainy day

 

[Stealthy]

Why waste all that time movment , why not after moving frd to the right , just left punch / boshi to opponents solar plexus ???

Just a thought an a rainy day

Thats more or less what I am doing. Right foot moves to the right while checking(left arm/hand) and dazing(right hand). Right foot is planted and the left moves in with the solid punch(left hand) to the solar plexus.

It's the right foot that is stable for the strike the left foot moves in to maintain distance and add a little power.


edit: since we have a discussion going.

There are a few levels of complexity that can be added to it...the most obvious is if Uki kicks to your left side(above groin...as in deflectable with an arm) with the right foot, evade to the fwd right/check/daze -> solid left punch. Whereas if they punch left side(ie: haymaker to the left ear) evade fwd right/check/daze -> solid left kick.

But also there are attack vector additions to complexity....Uki attacks your left side above the shoulder evade fwd right/check/daze(shuto-ken to the neck) -> solid left shuto-ken to the neck. But if Uki attacks lower left ribs evade fwd right/check(low)/daze(flesh grab armpit) -> solid kick with the left foot.

So a definitively different response could be triggered relative to the weapon(punch or kick), the attack vector(low, high, left side, right side{more actually}) and the powering side(stepping in with the right or left). To an extent more complexity can make it harder for you to be "worked out" but it does mean more time drilling in order to be effective, more importantly though relative to the many triggers there may be optimum responses.

I don't mind adding a little extra complexity so for now I am curious as to find a few body strike kata that may shed light on optimum responses.

 

[Aiki Lee]

boshi ken, as a strike can serve a seperate purpose than say a fudo ken, the conventional fist. Boshi ken can be used not only to strike, but can grind deep into the target causing continued pain that a fudo ken cannot.

Also when looking at jumonji no kata, the first counter strike with the knuckles to the attacker's limb sets up a straight line to kyusho points like butsumetsu or kimon. Once the boshi ken hits you can grind it like I mentioned above and cause continued pain to mess with the opponent's mental and physical balance.

Boshi ken and some of the other fists have their usages for striking more difficult targets and boshi kens grinding usage can cause tearing at vulnerable areas like the arteries in the neck. Other fists such as fudo ken, shuto, or shikan ken can be used in similar areas, but the effect on the target is different.

I recommend getting a parnter and lightly practicing the different kinds of strikes to the same areas of the body and see the different reactions you training partner has and how that would influence the flow of combat.

 

[Stealthy]

I recommend getting a partner and lightly practicing the different kinds of strikes to the same areas of the body and see the different reactions your training partner has and how that would influence the flow of combat.

Thanks for your insights.

I particularly like your recommendation to try it out with a training partner which is certainly the backbone of everything I do(you can't trust anything these days until it's been tested).

What I like most about Ninjutsu is in theory someone has already done this, so to circumvent years of trial and error all that is needed is to grab the right kata and try it out a little.

 

[Razor]

Please keep in mind that kata from the various scrolls represent a style of fighting from a particular place (Japan) and time in history. At that time a technique like jumonji using boshi ken to the specified targets made sense and were no doubt very effective. However, it's fair to say that the style of fighting has changed, and in some cases the techniques from feudal Japan may not be as effective against common contemporary attacks (think a left jab right cross combination, or a left and right hook combination). <br>
<br>
If you feel that the technique is an effective defense to a modern style attack, even after discussing it with your instructor and hours and hours of training, what can be done is examine whether the <em>tactics</em> of the kata will work against a modern style attack. By that I mean that the technique is quite precise (against a step punch, step back 45 execute an uke nagashi, boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, fingers to eyes, step back - second step punch, slide back 45 execute uke nagashi, then boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, then fingers to eyes, step back.) But the tactics are a little more general, and open to change according to circumstance. The tactics, as I see them, for jumonji, are defend by moving off the primal line and block/counter strike using the same hand. Can those tactics be used against a modern-style attack?<br>
<br>
All the best with your journey.<br>
<br>
With respect

<br>
<br>
Thank you, that helps to explain it. I thought that this might be the case, and that it was really meant to be teaching tactics rather than specific set patterns. <br>
<br>

boshi ken, as a strike can serve a seperate purpose than say a fudo ken, the conventional fist. Boshi ken can be used not only to strike, but can grind deep into the target causing continued pain that a fudo ken cannot.<br>
<br>
Also when looking at jumonji no kata, the first counter strike with the knuckles to the attacker's limb sets up a straight line to kyusho points like butsumetsu or kimon. Once the boshi ken hits you can grind it like I mentioned above and cause continued pain to mess with the opponent's mental and physical balance.<br>
<br>
Boshi ken and some of the other fists have their usages for striking more difficult targets and boshi kens grinding usage can cause tearing at vulnerable areas like the arteries in the neck. Other fists such as fudo ken, shuto, or shikan ken can be used in similar areas, but the effect on the target is different. <br>
<br>
I recommend getting a parnter and lightly practicing the different kinds of strikes to the same areas of the body and see the different reactions you training partner has and how that would influence the flow of combat.

<br>
<br>
Thank you for the comments, I hadn't thought of it in terms of which kyusho points the technique lines up with.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ive often thought the same thing when practicing sunshin. and the chin no kata with the thumb strike to the ribs.
the thumb strike can be really painfull if used properly. ofcourse you have to condition your hands for these. and you will be able to put more power into a very precise spot. if your targeting is spot on than this strikes will do more damadge than say just a punch to the ribs. the thing with these are you need to target weak spots of the body to be effective. so knowing your Kyusho will help

I prefer to use a knuckle strike in place of the thumb strike thou. this is more of a kukishinden than gyoku ryu thou.

Psst, it's "Sanshin", or more correctly, "Gogyo no Kata", and it's not the Chi no Kata that has the Shito Ken to the ribs, it's Fu no Kata. Chi no Kata has a Sanshitan Ken to the jaw. And, so you know, although Kukishinden Ryu certainly does use Koppo Ken a fair bit (the middle knuckle of the thumb), it uses Boshi Ken quite a bit as well. After all, the name "Boshi Ken" comes from the Kukishinden Ryu itself, with Gyokko (along with Koto and some others) using the term "Shito Ken". But you'll see Kukishinden Ryu next year... with a small glimpse at the next Special Workshop in a few weeks time.

I've been looking for some good body shot kata to slip into my home training.

My Boshi-ken aren't all that great so I tend to punch to the solar plexus but it would be nice to use a proper kata.


Specifically I am looking for a kata with a few key elements. If the kata starts off moving back 45 once or twice that is cool but the key element needs to be.


Advancing forward 45 degrees to deflect with the trailing hand(ie: opponent steps in with the right foot attacking either my centreline or left side, evade forward right 45, check with left hand) virtually simultaneous with the evade and check is a fast disorient counter-strike to the face(ie: shako ken) step in with a powerful body shot(with the checking hand).

At the moment as in the example above I would evade right forward, check with the left, fast punch to the solar plexus with the right -> step in with the left foot to drive a max power solar plexus punch with the left -> and then just because I like it finish with a throw.

There are no variations on height or fancy targets in what I do and it would be cool to tech it up a bit. If Ninjutsu is anything it is ultra advanced sequencing and target selection so I figure there is probably already a kata or two that would fit the bill perfectly.

With Respect,
Stealthy.

To be frank, Stealthy, if you're not training the kata correctly, or properly, instead looking to express what you want to do (moving forward instead of the angled movement back), then you probably aren't getting what the kata are there to teach. There are a large number of reasons for Jumonji to move the way it does, having to do with the position it is in your learning of Gyokko Ryu, as well as the various strategic lessons inherrant in the movements themselves. These include, but are not limited to, a correct understanding of the relationship between distance and angling, the use of same hand for blocking and counter-striking, moving against a continuous attack, moving to a position where you can counter while not being able to be struck (ideally, this should be your position when you launch the Shito Ken, which is why a simple shift back moves your hand out of range with the finger-tips towards the eyes). Additionally, if you have simply moved sideways, then your a little too cramped for a really powerful punch to the solar plexus, and you're directly in range for a second punch from the attacker. Perhaps a little more study of the original movement before rushing to change it?

But while I'm here, let's look at Shito Ken as opposed to Boshi Ken (there's a reason the name is slightly different....)

Shito Ken (&#25351;&#20995;&#25331 refers to "finger sword fist", and implies a more striking weapon. In schools that use this term (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu), it is more often used as a pinpoint weapon attacking smaller targets. Here, the fist is held solidly, with the thumb braced against the rest of the closed hand. In regard to the targets mentioned above, it may be pertinent to realise that, if in armour, it may only be such targets (under the armpit, top of the ribs) which are available for you to strike... and using a full fist might see you simply slamming your fingers into the armour, risking damaging them and missing your target.

Boshi Ken (&#25287;&#25351;&#25331 refers more simply to the thumb, meaning more along the lines of a "probing finger/thumb fist". The schools that use this term (such as Kukishinden Ryu) tend to use it more as a pressuring weapon, often against the side of the neck or into the hip to help prevent/stop a throw. Here, the thumb can be held against the rest of the hand, but is often in an open hand (with the fingers gripping, or the hand bracing to support the thumb).

 

[Stealthy]

To be frank, Stealthy, if you're not training the kata correctly, or properly, instead looking to express what you want to do (moving forward instead of the angled movement back), then you probably aren't getting what the kata are there to teach. There are a large number of reasons for Jumonji to move the way it does, having to do with the position it is in your learning of Gyokko Ryu, as well as the various strategic lessons inherrant in the movements themselves. These include, but are not limited to, a correct understanding of the relationship between distance and angling, the use of same hand for blocking and counter-striking, moving against a continuous attack, moving to a position where you can counter while not being able to be struck (ideally, this should be your position when you launch the Shito Ken, which is why a simple shift back moves your hand out of range with the finger-tips towards the eyes). Additionally, if you have simply moved sideways, then your a little too cramped for a really powerful punch to the solar plexus, and you're directly in range for a second punch from the attacker. Perhaps a little more study of the original movement before rushing to change it?

Thanks for the input. It is not my intention to change the kata rather it is my wish to change what I am doing to the kata. Everything I do has purpose and fits in with everything else I do, if I can replace my own kata with better kata then that is great. Moving back and away has great value when it can be used and then there are times when it can't(ie: confined spaces) so it is not my intention to alter kata to suit the situation rather to select the right kata for the situation. I realise Ninjutsu may not have all the answers but that is fine everything it does have can be put to good use so any help is greatly appreciated. Since my resources are severely limited the best course of action I have is simply to ask.

Can you think of a kata or two which fit the bill?

 

[Stealthy]

Perhaps I need to give a better example.

I hold in my hand a translation for Kap-pi kata. Attack: wide thumb knuckle strike to the temple. Defence: left forearm jamming-block and right inside sword-hand strike to the neck...step with a left inside sword-hand strike to the other side of the neck...leap back away.

This kata is fine for the thumb knuckle strike to the temple but I have to ask the question..Is it the "right" kata to use for a low punch to the ribs? Since I can't possibly answer that question because it's only "real Ninjutsu" if a real Ninja tells me it is, I have two choices, get the "right" kata or just do my own thing.

So doing my own thing might be varying the kata to a defence against a low attack but keeping the sword hands to the neck or perhaps completely scrapping the sword hands and doing two solar plexus punches instead. Neither option is Ninjutsu but at the end of the day I have to do something.

A better option is to find the "right" kata(if there is one) and that's what I am trying to do here.

My apologies for revealing info about Kap-pi which may be inappropriate for an internet forum but I tried in a couple of posts already to paint the picture without resorting to Ninjutsu intel.

 

[gregtca]

Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there,

Hope this helps

Greg

 

[Razor]

But while I'm here, let's look at Shito Ken as opposed to Boshi Ken (there's a reason the name is slightly different....)

Shito Ken (&#25351;&#20995;&#25331 refers to "finger sword fist", and implies a more striking weapon. In schools that use this term (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu), it is more often used as a pinpoint weapon attacking smaller targets. Here, the fist is held solidly, with the thumb braced against the rest of the closed hand. In regard to the targets mentioned above, it may be pertinent to realise that, if in armour, it may only be such targets (under the armpit, top of the ribs) which are available for you to strike... and using a full fist might see you simply slamming your fingers into the armour, risking damaging them and missing your target.

Boshi Ken (&#25287;&#25351;&#25331 refers more simply to the thumb, meaning more along the lines of a "probing finger/thumb fist". The schools that use this term (such as Kukishinden Ryu) tend to use it more as a pressuring weapon, often against the side of the neck or into the hip to help prevent/stop a throw. Here, the thumb can be held against the rest of the hand, but is often in an open hand (with the fingers gripping, or the hand bracing to support the thumb).

Thanks, I didn't realise the subtle difference in meaning, and wasn't really sure if they were interchangeable or not.

Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there,

Hope this helps

Greg

I understand that kata are not supposed to be pre-programmed responses to attack, I was just wondering about the effectiveness of that detail of the response. My instructor also often encourages us to consider henka once we have practised the kata a bit, so I'm not getting stuck in the mindset of performing these particular responses. I'm sure a lot more understanding will come with training though!

 

[Stealthy]

Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there,

Hope this helps

Greg

Sweet thanks Greg, sure it helps.

Sorry to Ninja your thread Razor, I didn't realise asking for a kata or two which include Boshi ken, Shito ken or something equally groovy would be such an ordeal.

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks for the input. It is not my intention to change the kata rather it is my wish to change what I am doing to the kata. Everything I do has purpose and fits in with everything else I do, if I can replace my own kata with better kata then that is great. Moving back and away has great value when it can be used and then there are times when it can't(ie: confined spaces) so it is not my intention to alter kata to suit the situation rather to select the right kata for the situation. I realise Ninjutsu may not have all the answers but that is fine everything it does have can be put to good use so any help is greatly appreciated. Since my resources are severely limited the best course of action I have is simply to ask.

Can you think of a kata or two which fit the bill?

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here.... One of the points of learning a martial art is to move past what "you" want, or think is best, and adopt the teachings of the art itself. Changing things because "well, I just think that moving back is limited" really misses the point of learning the art in the first place, as you are ignoring what it's trying to teach you. There's really nothing about "what you are doing to the kata", as you don't really do anything "to" it, until you have actually understood it. That said, when you do understand what the kata is teaching, then you are free to adapt it... for instance, with Jumonji no Kata, you may find that moving forward to the outside keeps with the ideals of the kata (in terms of maintaining distance and angling to keep you safe while allowing a counter strike), whereas moving forward or sideways to the inside doesn't.

So here's a fun, "modern" version that employs your wanting to find something that moves forward, while maintaining the lessons of Jumonji no Kata:

Uke: Orthodox "boxer" pose, left leg forward. Jab to the face with your lead hand.
Tori: Short "street" version of Jumonji no Kamae, evade by angling forward to the right as you deflect the punch with your right (lead) hand, then punch to the floating ribs with a left (rear) punch. Bring your left hand up on the outside of Uke's arm/shoulder, and push them away as you gain distance.
Uke: Step in towards Tori and punch to the head with a right hook/haymaker
Tori: Evade by dropping under Uke's punch as you move forward and to the left, using your left hand to help "guide" or deflect the punch past. Strike to the floating ribs with a right punch, then come up on the outside, and push Uke away.

As you can see, most of Jumonji no Kata's lessons are preserved here (while some, such as constant use of the same hand, are necessarily left out). A controlling or knockout finish can always be added as well, and the punches (with sufficient hand conditioning!) can be swapped for Shito Ken, although for a "street" technique, I'd most likely keep it as a fist.

When it comes to looking for a kata that uses a forward action, think of ones like Seion from Kukishinden Ryu, Kyogi from Koto Ryu, and so on. They're there, but by necessity they are different kata. Trying to make one kata the answer to everything, or have it as the basis for answers to everything just doesn't work.

Perhaps I need to give a better example.

I hold in my hand a translation for Kap-pi kata. Attack: wide thumb knuckle strike to the temple. Defence: left forearm jamming-block and right inside sword-hand strike to the neck...step with a left inside sword-hand strike to the other side of the neck...leap back away.

This kata is fine for the thumb knuckle strike to the temple but I have to ask the question..Is it the "right" kata to use for a low punch to the ribs? Since I can't possibly answer that question because it's only "real Ninjutsu" if a real Ninja tells me it is, I have two choices, get the "right" kata or just do my own thing.

So doing my own thing might be varying the kata to a defence against a low attack but keeping the sword hands to the neck or perhaps completely scrapping the sword hands and doing two solar plexus punches instead. Neither option is Ninjutsu but at the end of the day I have to do something.

A better option is to find the "right" kata(if there is one) and that's what I am trying to do here.

My apologies for revealing info about Kap-pi which may be inappropriate for an internet forum but I tried in a couple of posts already to paint the picture without resorting to Ninjutsu intel.

That version of Kappi is only found in one organisation, and is not a "translation" of the kata, it is a henka application of the kata against an attack, rather than as an offensive action as it appears in the scroll itself (for the record, the direct translations I've seen for Kappi basically say "Two complete Ura Shuto to the neck". That's it.). There are reasons that it was designed that way (in the organisation you got it from), but I'm not going into that on a forum here.

Once again, if you are looking for specific kata dealing with low punches, they exist as well. I'm thinking some kata in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, some Shinden Fudo Ryu, some in Gyokko Ryu, and even some in Koto Ryu. Look to Kodachi defences against thrusts to the body as a starting point.

In terms of whether or not what you're doing is 'Kappi', no, it's not. If you look to the name, "Kappi" refers to "draw together", or "pack together and fly". You're not drawing or packing together with the low punches, or leaping (flying) to escape at the end either.

Sweet thanks Greg, sure it helps.

Sorry to Ninja your thread Razor, I didn't realise asking for a kata or two which include Boshi ken, Shito ken or something equally groovy would be such an ordeal.

Ah, only a kata or two that include Boshi Ken/Shito Ken? That's easy! Which system are you thinking of? Togakure Ryu has Sayu Kumogakure, for instance, Gyokko Ryu uses Shito Ken quite a bit, as does Koto Ryu, it's very popular in Kukishinden Ryu, is found in Takagi Yoshin Ryu.... but honestly, I didn't get that request from your posts.

Thanks, I didn't realise the subtle difference in meaning, and wasn't really sure if they were interchangeable or not.

Not a problem. You may also come across terms such as "Yubi Ken", basically literally "thumb fist", or "Moguri Ken", "burrowing fist", and a few others.... just to keep you on your toes!

Something that may be stated, though, is that there are reasons for the various fists being preferred by one system or another. You may note that many kamae in Gyokko Ryu feature a Shito Ken (Jumonji, Ichimonji, Hicho, their form of Doko), and in each instance the thumb is pointing straight upwards. One of the associated spiritual teachings of Gyokko Ryu teaches that your energy travels through your thumbs, and you are directing that energy towards Heaven.

Oh, and while I'm here, the kata you were referring to in your initial post is Jumonji no Kata, rather than Jumonji no Kamae. There is a sequence of movements (kata) within Gyokko Ryu, as part of it's Kihon Gata, that is called Jumonji no Kamae. It is the third of the Muto Taihenjutsu, a series of exercises dealing with evasive actions against a swordsman, and although it starts from Jumonji no Kamae, there is no use of a Shito Ken.

I understand that kata are not supposed to be pre-programmed responses to attack, I was just wondering about the effectiveness of that detail of the response. My instructor also often encourages us to consider henka once we have practised the kata a bit, so I'm not getting stuck in the mindset of performing these particular responses. I'm sure a lot more understanding will come with training though!

Well, really, they are and they aren't....

No, you're not supposed to automatically respond with a rote responce a la the kata movements, as each encounter is it's own unique situation, and some adaptation may indeed be required. However, what the kata are designed to do is to instill (program) their lessons, tactics, and strategies, which can then be expressed in myriad forms, so if you look at them as programming you with their combative tactics, then yes you are supposed to come out with them!

All the best with your continued training.

 

[Stealthy]

one of the points of learning a martial art is to move past what "you" want, or think is best, and adopt the teachings of the art itself.

Very true.

trying to make one kata the answer to everything, or have it as the basis for answers to everything just doesn't work.

Wow, I really said that? That's crazy talk, clearly you need at least two.

Seriously though, How many kata do you need to have a good answer for everything(within reason)?

(for the record, the direct translations i've seen for kappi basically say "two complete ura shuto to the neck". That's it.)

This is why I don't even pretend to know anything about Ninjutsu and try to refrain from referring to specific kata. I know I don't know anything.

once again, if you are looking for specific kata dealing with low punches, they exist as well. I'm thinking some kata in takagi yoshin ryu, some shinden fudo ryu, some in gyokko ryu, and even some in koto ryu. Look to kodachi defences against thrusts to the body as a starting point.

yeah that's what I was looking for, kata which had Tori delivering body strikes but to avoid being inundated with 15,000 kata I specified moving forward 45, checking with the trailing hand, counterstriking above the shoulders and then delivering a solid body-shot.

ah, only a kata or two that include boshi ken/shito ken? That's easy! Which system are you thinking of? Togakure ryu has sayu kumogakure, for instance, gyokko ryu uses shito ken quite a bit, as does koto ryu, it's very popular in kukishinden ryu, is found in takagi yoshin ryu....

Hmm, which Ryu? that's a good question, I don't know enough about any of the ryu to say.