Borrowing Ideas

[MJS]

This is usually something that is frowned upon. People say that everything you need to know is already in the art. Now, I'm not talking about crosstraining, I'm talking more about taking an idea or concept from another art, and adding it to your bag of tools. In other words...take an idea from boxing. Can you work or cross reference with someone who boxes, take the way that they may execute a punch, and add it to your skill set. Take a takedown defense from a grappler, and play with the tackle defenses that we have. Is there anything that can be added to turbocharge the technique?

Now, some will probably say, as I said above, that its already there, you dont need to look any further, and perhaps its just me thats missing it, and just because its not in MY Kenpo, doesnt mean its not there. Sure, that may very well be true. But, IMHO, I feel that there are so many wonderful arts out there, to pass by and not look...well, you just may be missing out on something good.

Kinda like the buffet....so many foods, you just want to try them all.

Mike

 

[morph4me]

Borrowing ideas? Questioning your art or instructor? Blasphemy!! You will comply, resistance is futile .

I'm a big proponent of asking why and looking around to see if there's a better way, if not for everyone, at least for me. It's also a good way to better understand your own art.

 

[IWishToLearn]

This is usually something that is frowned upon. People say that everything you need to know is already in the art. Now, I'm not talking about crosstraining, I'm talking more about taking an idea or concept from another art, and adding it to your bag of tools. In other words...take an idea from boxing. Can you work or cross reference with someone who boxes, take the way that they may execute a punch, and add it to your skill set. Take a takedown defense from a grappler, and play with the tackle defenses that we have. Is there anything that can be added to turbocharge the technique?

Now, some will probably say, as I said above, that its already there, you dont need to look any further, and perhaps its just me thats missing it, and just because its not in MY Kenpo, doesnt mean its not there. Sure, that may very well be true. But, IMHO, I feel that there are so many wonderful arts out there, to pass by and not look...well, you just may be missing out on something good.

Kinda like the buffet....so many foods, you just want to try them all.

Mike

Go for it!

 

[Hand Sword]

This is usually something that is frowned upon. People say that everything you need to know is already in the art. Now, I'm not talking about crosstraining, I'm talking more about taking an idea or concept from another art, and adding it to your bag of tools. In other words...take an idea from boxing. Can you work or cross reference with someone who boxes, take the way that they may execute a punch, and add it to your skill set. Take a takedown defense from a grappler, and play with the tackle defenses that we have. Is there anything that can be added to turbocharge the technique?

Now, some will probably say, as I said above, that its already there, you dont need to look any further, and perhaps its just me thats missing it, and just because its not in MY Kenpo, doesnt mean its not there. Sure, that may very well be true. But, IMHO, I feel that there are so many wonderful arts out there, to pass by and not look...well, you just may be missing out on something good.

Kinda like the buffet....so many foods, you just want to try them all.

Mike

I've always done this mixing and matching, since I was young. When I would "freestyle" a sd technique in class at the time, full of the blended stuff, my instructors loved it and would have me show the higher belts. Besides that, in class as we defend against tackles, punches, etc... no one will do it as well as those that specialize in those areas. I would recommend that one doesn't jump in too early though. Focus has to be given to the basics. When comfort is gained and good flow, then feel free to try the buffet I say!!

 

[championmarius]

I was always under the impression that there was no real "right" way to do Kenpo. Yes, admittedly, early on it is a good idea to "play by the rules" and all that. But there comes a time when you've got to get out and experience the other stuff.
I have been to so many seminars and camps it hurts, each and every time I've picked up a new toy for the Kenpo tool box. I guess it helps to think of Kenpo as a platform to which you can add whatever you want.
Or, maybe I take to free an approach to my Kenpo. but after Wing Chun, systema and all the others, It's still Kenpo. Just Kenpo with extra bits...

 

[JTKenpo]

This is usually something that is frowned upon. People say that everything you need to know is already in the art. Now, I'm not talking about crosstraining, I'm talking more about taking an idea or concept from another art, and adding it to your bag of tools. In other words...take an idea from boxing. Can you work or cross reference with someone who boxes, take the way that they may execute a punch, and add it to your skill set. Take a takedown defense from a grappler, and play with the tackle defenses that we have. Is there anything that can be added to turbocharge the technique?

Now, some will probably say, as I said above, that its already there, you dont need to look any further, and perhaps its just me thats missing it, and just because its not in MY Kenpo, doesnt mean its not there. Sure, that may very well be true. But, IMHO, I feel that there are so many wonderful arts out there, to pass by and not look...well, you just may be missing out on something good.

Kinda like the buffet....so many foods, you just want to try them all.

Mike

Personally I think it is essential! Is it already in there, well yeah to a degree. Remember this is exactly what the founders of Kajukenbo did. They took the best from their given arts and worked off each other to develop the system. The old adage of never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler is absolutely true, but thats in the ring or on the street. I want a boxer to show me how "he"punches and a wrestler to show me "his" takedown and takedown defense so I can go back and add it to my repitoire. I want to take what they teach me and "kenpoize" it. Over on Matts kempoinfo page there is a write up about knife defenses and how he feels that we (as skk practitioners) have been mislead by the knife defenses that were originally taught through the Villari lineage and that he is moving to a more philipino art paridigm. So if Arnis/Kali/Escrima do knife defenses better then I do them as a kenpoist then I want them to teach me so I don't get fileyed (pun intended).

 

[Empty Hands]

I am an avid incorporator. I have brought elements of muay thai, boxing, and BJJ into my kenpo and no one has complained yet.

 

[Flying Crane]

Somtimes context makes all the difference in the world.

I've had "Ah-Ha!!" moments in my training when something in one art made a lightbulb go on, and suddenly something from another art made more sense to me. Doing something similar, yet in a different context, can sometimes bring clarity on techniques that you might have had some confusion about.

 

[anubis4b]

If we fail to "borrow" from other arts, do we not condemn Kempo do die? If Kempo (or any other martial art) doesn't grow by adding new moves those arts that do, will find ways to counter ours. I feel that all arts (martial/musical/whatever) are living and need to be enjoyed and expanded upon at every opportunity.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If we fail to "borrow" from other arts, do we not condemn Kempo do die? If Kempo (or any other martial art) doesn't grow by adding new moves those arts that do, will find ways to counter ours. I feel that all arts (martial/musical/whatever) are living and need to be enjoyed and expanded upon at every opportunity.

I wouldn't say you borrow from other arts but examine the ideas and ask you teacher to show you whare that is addressed in the Kenpo he or she is teaching.
Sean

 

[punisher73]

This is usually something that is frowned upon. People say that everything you need to know is already in the art. Now, I'm not talking about crosstraining, I'm talking more about taking an idea or concept from another art, and adding it to your bag of tools. In other words...take an idea from boxing. Can you work or cross reference with someone who boxes, take the way that they may execute a punch, and add it to your skill set. Take a takedown defense from a grappler, and play with the tackle defenses that we have. Is there anything that can be added to turbocharge the technique?

Now, some will probably say, as I said above, that its already there, you dont need to look any further, and perhaps its just me thats missing it, and just because its not in MY Kenpo, doesnt mean its not there. Sure, that may very well be true. But, IMHO, I feel that there are so many wonderful arts out there, to pass by and not look...well, you just may be missing out on something good.

Kinda like the buffet....so many foods, you just want to try them all.

Mike

I agree that it is "already in there", BUT....as in this example, kenpo, look at Mr. Parker's background. He boxed and was a BB in Judo. So the techniques he designed around those was already knowing how the others trained. For many of us, we don't have the experience in those other arts to pick up on the "fine details" that make our own technique better.

If you can spend a little time with someone from the other art to pick up on those fine details I think it is ok. But, you also don't have to reinvent the wheel and study as many arts as possible to make your own style.

 

[Danjo]

Personally I think it is essential! Is it already in there, well yeah to a degree. Remember this is exactly what the founders of Kajukenbo did. They took the best from their given arts and worked off each other to develop the system. The old adage of never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler is absolutely true, but thats in the ring or on the street. I want a boxer to show me how "he"punches and a wrestler to show me "his" takedown and takedown defense so I can go back and add it to my repitoire. I want to take what they teach me and "kenpoize" it. Over on Matts kempoinfo page there is a write up about knife defenses and how he feels that we (as skk practitioners) have been mislead by the knife defenses that were originally taught through the Villari lineage and that he is moving to a more philipino art paridigm. So if Arnis/Kali/Escrima do knife defenses better then I do them as a kenpoist then I want them to teach me so I don't get fileyed (pun intended).

I think it depends on whether one is incorporating a principle, or just slapping something onto what you already have. In Kajukenbo, the founders took their respective arts apart and integrated the principles into cohesive techniques over 3 years to come up with Kajukenbo. It is therefore a unique art, rather than just a mish mash of the root arts that it is comprised of. Doing this takes someone (or in Kajukenbo's case five someones) that really know what they are doing. Ed Parker was able to do this as was Bruce Lee, but I think that most people do well to find an existing art that has what they need and work it.

 

[MA-Caver]

I think it depends on whether one is incorporating a principle, or just slapping something onto what you already have. In Kajukenbo, the founders took their respective arts apart and integrated the principles into cohesive techniques over 3 years to come up with Kajukenbo. It is therefore a unique art, rather than just a mish mash of the root arts that it is comprised of. Doing this takes someone (or in Kajukenbo's case five someones) that really know what they are doing. Ed Parker was able to do this as was Bruce Lee, but I think that most people do well to find an existing art that has what they need and work it.

I agree. Both Parker and Lee knew that an art that fails to "grow" is doomed to stagnation. Though many have concepts and more importantly traditions and a set way of doing this or that tech, being able to find a different or *ahem* better way of doing it would help the MA-ist. Not all attackers, opponents are going to react in the manner that the technique says they're supposed to and a good MA-ist should know how to adapt or quickly change to suit.
I think it is a sign of a good MA practitioner to learn the forms, techniques, sets and so on of their chosen art and know them well to honor the founders, and instructors who teach them... then experiment on each. It is how one can best understand their instructor(s), their art, their opponents/attackers and more importantly, themselves.

 

[MJS]

Borrowing ideas? Questioning your art or instructor? Blasphemy!! You will comply, resistance is futile .

I'm a big proponent of asking why and looking around to see if there's a better way, if not for everyone, at least for me. It's also a good way to better understand your own art.

I know, who would have ever thought of doing such a horrible, horrible, horrible thing! LOL! I mean, there are some arts and people out there who may specialize in a certain area. If I can take 1 thing, thats all, from them, apply it to MY Kenpo, and make ME better, why not do it??

 

[MJS]

I think it depends on whether one is incorporating a principle, or just slapping something onto what you already have. In Kajukenbo, the founders took their respective arts apart and integrated the principles into cohesive techniques over 3 years to come up with Kajukenbo. It is therefore a unique art, rather than just a mish mash of the root arts that it is comprised of. Doing this takes someone (or in Kajukenbo's case five someones) that really know what they are doing. Ed Parker was able to do this as was Bruce Lee, but I think that most people do well to find an existing art that has what they need and work it.

Exactly!! And using Kaju as an example, you have a fantastic blend of very effective material.

 

[JTKenpo]

I think it depends on whether one is incorporating a principle, or just slapping something onto what you already have. In Kajukenbo, the founders took their respective arts apart and integrated the principles into cohesive techniques over 3 years to come up with Kajukenbo. It is therefore a unique art, rather than just a mish mash of the root arts that it is comprised of. Doing this takes someone (or in Kajukenbo's case five someones) that really know what they are doing. Ed Parker was able to do this as was Bruce Lee, but I think that most people do well to find an existing art that has what they need and work it.

This was my intent from my post and I agree that some people do have a tendency to want to slap different arts together and call it whozywhatzy-do. You mention Bruce Lee and I think alot of the piecing together comes from people misinterpreting The Tao of Jeet Kune DO. They here about Bruce saying the art of no art and technique without technique, but what they fail to realize is Bruce was a Master when he did these things, he wasn't just some guy that watched his older brother box a few times. As you said people do well to find an existing art that has what they need and work it. Once you have done that I think experimentation with other arts is a necessity so that you don't get shoe horned into thinking you now have the bag with all the tricks.

 

[DavidCC]

I look to people who train in other systems to give me perspective on the thigns I learn in Kempo. Move A is similar to something I see an aikido guy do, I ask him about it, play with him on it, see if his understanding of it lines up with ours and if it does I add to what I know, and if it is different (only looks similar) well that's a learning experience too.

You can watch Iron Chef all day but can you cook like Morimoto?