Body method

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you ever tried to punch without using your arm and just use your body (you may even put your arms behind our back)?

As long as your power generation come from

- bottom (feet) -> up (hip/waist),
- back (spine) -> front (chest/shoulder),

your power will finally reach to your arm and fist. In other words, your arm movement is not that important.

This is the opposite of to "freeze your body and just punch your arm" training.

Here is an example that you use your body to do the "hammer fist". It may look over exaggerated, but it forces you to concentrate on your "body method" instead of your arm movement.

What's your opinion on this?

 

[MetalBoar]

Have you ever tried to punch without using your arm and just use your body (you may even put your arms behind our back)?

As long as your power generation come from

- bottom (feet) -> up (hip/waist),
- back (spine) -> front (chest/shoulder),

your power will finally reach to your arm and fist. In other words, your arm movement is not that important.

This is the opposite of to "freeze your body and just punch your arm" training.

Here is an example that you use your body to do the "hammer fist". It may look over exaggerated, but it forces you to concentrate on your "body method" instead of your arm movement.

What's your opinion on this?

This is how the Hapkido school where I trained generated power, not quite as exaggerated as that video, but the same concept. I found it to be very effective for that purpose.

 

[Alan0354]

This is a common and very basic idea that should be learn from day one. Power generates from body, not the arms. The arm can be relaxed like a whip. It's just easy to talk and hard to do. It takes a while and a lot of practice to get it. Whether it's exaggerated like this or just turn enough, result is the same. You just trade off more power but slow recovery with exaggerated body turning vs speed of multiple punches with less body turning. Just practice practice and practice.

My opinion is it has to be practice on heavy bags(both, half air and half bag). One can do all the fancy stuffs punching air, hitting the heavy bag is where it distinguish the good from the bad. The movement of the bag, the sound of hitting is tell tale. All of a sudden, the bag stop swinging, just backing up slowly as you punch multiple punches and you can see penetration into the bag and the sound gets louder with kind of echo......Bottom line, you know when you get it, you feel it when the body comes together with the arm and become one.

For me, I don't turn my body as much, I cannot turn a lot because of my back problem. Also, it's to slow if I exaggerate the body rotation. I practice multiple punches, not just one hard punch.

You can lose it too if you stop practice, it's about timing. it' harder if the bag is moving, that you don't have a set distance.

 

[_Simon_]

Yep, almost exclusively train this way

 

[wab25]

This is the opposite of to "freeze your body and just punch your arm" training.

Curious, who does this type of training? I have never seen an art that trains this way.

Have you ever tried to punch without using your arm and just use your body (you may even put your arms behind our back)?

I like to teach our hip throws without arms. Some of the throws you can do without arms or hands at all... if uke just maintains his grip on your gi. Other throws, we use just one finger to "hook" uke's gi to do the throw. The idea with these training drills, is to use the body movement to do the throw, not the arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Curious, who does this type of training? I have never seen an art that trains this way.

I like to show an example that I agree with instead of an example that I don't agree with.

When one punches with bending/straighting knees, the power generation is from bottom -> up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The following 2 clips are the highest level of the long fist form training. Body method and maximum body stretching are addressed.

4th road Cha Quan:

Taizu long fist:

 

[Flying Crane]

The following 2 clips are the highest level of the long fist form training. Body method and maximum body stretching are addressed.

4th road Cha Quan:

Taizu long fist:

Could you explain what you mean by “highest level”?

Tibetan crane uses big movement in a similar way, but it is meant to be a training mechanism for the student to learn full-body connection. We do this in our basics and fundamentals as well as our forms. However, it is understood that the big movement it is not the most efficient when it is time to fight, so the big, “exaggerated” movement is reduced or eliminated but if the student had been training correctly and with the correct understanding, he should still be able to get tremendous power from the short movement. He has learned how to harness full-body power and can do it instantly with short movement.

We continue to use big movement as we train our basics and forms because it is always in need of polishing and development. That road has no end. But using it is different.

So I don’t know how to define whether or not this is the form at its highest level. In my opinion, it is simply how the form is done in order to develop the desired capabilities within the theory and structure of the system. The form is an exercise meant to help you develop your skill. It is meant to simply be done within the context of practice. The form isn’t a performance. It is never finished, as a product. We just do it, always. In this way it is similar to the heavy bag: you just keep working with it as a tool to develop your skill, which is never finished.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Could you explain what you mean by “highest level”?

If the long fist training take 3 years (like my senior high school long fist informal class), you will learn those 2 forms on the 3rd year.

10 roads Tan tui (beginner level)-> 3rd road Pao Chuan (intermediate level) -> 4th road Cha Chuan (advance level)

Those are the 3 major forms. There are other forms along with it.

 

[Flying Crane]

IF the long fist training take 3 years, you will learn those 2 forms on the 3rd year.

10 roads Tan tui (beginner level)-> Pao Chuan (intermediate level) -> Cha Chuan (advance level)

You are saying that these are the last forms to be learned in the curriculum?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are saying that these are the last forms to be learned in the curriculum?

Yes! As far as the open hand form is concern. There are many weapon forms as well.

 

[Buka]

We used to train one inch punches all the time. Focusing on using the power of the body to really smack something.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We used to train one inch punches all the time. Focusing on using the power of the body to really smack something.

I do that too.

90 degree shoulder -> 180 degree shoulder

You can do that in 0 inch distance. Your fist touch the target. You then rotate your body.

 

[Alan0354]

Could you explain what you mean by “highest level”?

Tibetan crane uses big movement in a similar way, but it is meant to be a training mechanism for the student to learn full-body connection. We do this in our basics and fundamentals as well as our forms. However, it is understood that the big movement it is not the most efficient when it is time to fight, so the big, “exaggerated” movement is reduced or eliminated but if the student had been training correctly and with the correct understanding, he should still be able to get tremendous power from the short movement. He has learned how to harness full-body power and can do it instantly with short movement.

We continue to use big movement as we train our basics and forms because it is always in need of polishing and development. That road has no end. But using it is different.

So I don’t know how to define whether or not this is the form at its highest level. In my opinion, it is simply how the form is done in order to develop the desired capabilities within the theory and structure of the system. The form is an exercise meant to help you develop your skill. It is meant to simply be done within the context of practice. The form isn’t a performance. It is never finished, as a product. We just do it, always. In this way it is similar to the heavy bag: you just keep working with it as a tool to develop your skill, which is never finished.

Obviously I am not an expert, but From years of punching, I don't think big movement implies hard punches. I don't think people can tell how good a person punch by just doing forms, get on the heavy bag and one can tell very fast how good and how powerful the punching is.

Also, the more exaggerate the shoulder rotation, the slower the punches are as it takes time to turn the body and recover from the last punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also, the more exaggerate the shoulder rotation, the slower the punches are as it takes time to turn the body and recover from the last punch.

This is why you use

- heavy bag to train power.
- speed ball to train speed.

-The long fist system training is for power.
-The praying mantis system training is for speed.

In this praying mantis system clip, you can see a lot of arms movement. You won't see much body movement.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Agree with the method. We tend to break down all our techs this way and train the segments. Then put them together and progress into movement.

 

[drop bear]

This is why you use

- heavy bag to train power.
- speed ball to train speed.

-The long fist system training is for power.
-The praying mantis system training is for speed.

In this praying mantis system clip, you can see a lot of arms movement. You won't see much body movement.

Not really mutually exclusive.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not really mutually exclusive.

A beautiful wife who also cooks well is not mutually exclusive but hard to find.

 

[Alan0354]

This is why you use

- heavy bag to train power.
- speed ball to train speed.

-The long fist system training is for power.
-The praying mantis system training is for speed.

In this praying mantis system clip, you can see a lot of arms movement. You won't see much body movement.

The guy demo the speed bag was not using the shoulder at all. Of cause you can punch much faster, it's when using the shoulder that when it slow down.

I find punching air helps the speed. I am not into doing the set. I don't see any power in punching from those guys in your videos in post #7, it's like going through the motion softly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Curious, who does this type of training? I have never seen an art that trains this way.


I like to teach our hip throws without arms. Some of the throws you can do without arms or hands at all... if uke just maintains his grip on your gi. Other throws, we use just one finger to "hook" uke's gi to do the throw. The idea with these training drills, is to use the body movement to do the throw, not the arms.

I have practiced (and occasionally taught) how to deliver power mostly from the arm, for use in restricted situations (against a wall, on the ground, etc.). It’s mostly for understanding how much is lost, so you know what the punch is unlikely to accomplish.