Blending Styles

[Rich Parsons]

There's a difference between understanding how a different style works so that you can defend against it, and blending two or more styles together. Different styles have different philosophies, not all of them complimentary.
For example, Tae Kwon Do, isshin-ryu, and Kenpo kicking are executed differently. Same kick, three different ways to do it. Your body adapts to doing a technique a certain way. By trying to learn three different ways of kicking, you run the risk of getting confused.
Not to say that certain aikido techniques wouldn't work in a situation, but by focusing on the techniques rather than the whole package, you end up with this superficial mish-mash.
But it goes back to the Western mentality-if one is good, three is better.

But I thought you stated elsewhere that you believed that even the understanding of other arts, and or hanging out with someone of a different art was against your beliefs'. Are you disagreeing with your statement before or are you just not clear this time?

Curious

 

[MichiganTKD]

Good point.

As I stated originally in the "Sharing" thread, although I study aikido as well as Tae Kwon Do, I do not mix the two. I keep them separate. I'll admit, if the instructor is showing a wristlock/grab/hold to initiate the aikido technique, I imagine what Tae Kwon Do technique would also work. After 20+ years as a TKD student, you tend to do that. However, when I'm in the dojo, it is strictly aikido. When I'm practicing Tae Kwon Do by myself, it is just Tae Kwon Do. I've also never taught any of my students aikido. It is strictly something I do for me. So I practice both, but I don't blend. I keep them separate.

 

[bdparsons]

I teach IKCA Chinese Kenpo combined with generous elements of Wae Moo Kwan and Sun Moo Kwan Hapkido. Though some may call this a blend, I am very specific as to which art the specific moves come from. I think this helps to maintain the integrity of the individual arts while teaching individuals that these arts need not stand on their own.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Martial_Maniac]

My system (Shaolin Kenpo Karate) constantly encourages students to participate in tournaments where there will be other styles. Also, we constantly have seminars where the Great Grandmaster or Grandmaster will teach something, then there will be about three other representatives from other arts. For example, on April 30, there will be a seminar featuring Grandmaster Crimi (Hikari Ryuza Ryu Jujutsu), Grandmaster Alexander Archie (Goju Shorei Karate), Sigung Steve Labounty (American Kenpo), and my Grandmaster Rob Castro (Shaolin Kenpo Karate, of course). So even though my chosen art, Shaolin Kenpo Karate, doesn't teach mixed martial arts, they want us to be familiar with other arts. After all, how can you truly protect youself with one art if you aren't familiar with the art you are being attacked with?

 

[OULobo]

I have been thinking a lot about this question recently. I have reached a level in my primary art where I split my time in it between teaching, reviewing and learning a very small amount of new techniques. I took up yoga and MMA/BJJ on the off days to balance my mental/flexibility and my groundwork/realism. I've noticed that it is a little difficult to learn a new art or to brush up on one from the past, I have also found that it is even harder to learn a similar art, due to old habits getting in the way. I can pick up tricks from the similar art, but actually learning the nuances of it is really hard.

 

[Ceicei]

I have been thinking a lot about this question recently. I have reached a level in my primary art where I split my time in it between teaching, reviewing and learning a very small amount of new techniques. I took up yoga and MMA/BJJ on the off days to balance my mental/flexibility and my groundwork/realism. I've noticed that it is a little difficult to learn a new art or to brush up on one from the past, I have also found that it is even harder to learn a similar art, due to old habits getting in the way. I can pick up tricks from the similar art, but actually learning the nuances of it is really hard.

So how far have you progressed with MMA/BJJ? I'm wondering if you are still relatively new or have been in them for a while but reflecting upon your experiences?

- Ceicei

 

[Don Roley]

I think that you could do it if you first really had a firm foundation in one martial art before you tried to add other things in. The complaints I hear about blending styles all seem to deal with people who try to blend things without any great knowledge in any one system.

I think to know one system, you do need to be exposed to other ways of thinking. Different arts have differing ways of dealing with problems and some of these differences are fundemental to the way things are done. If you don't know why your art does things the way they do, and try to add things onto it, that is when the problem starts.

Let me give you an example- striking. Simple eh? What are you trying to do when you hit someone? The answer for most will be "damage" and nothing else. Some arts are really good at beating a person to mulch and everything they do is built around it. But some arts are built around taking a person down to the ground in grappling, and the way they strike is part of the fundemental differences they have in order to reach that goal.

Striking arts are like high explosives like C-4. The shock wave is sudden and the power shatters things. These arts punch in and out very quickly and the energy dump into the target is like that of a whip. The highest skill they can have is to break a board that is hanging from a string, because they have to do the energy dump before the board can move. In fact, I have heard it said that the way people are thrown across the room in the one inch punch trick is only for show. In a real situation you do not want the target to move but instead stay there and absorb more damage. And you learn to punch in such a way that they do not move much, but instead take damage from strikes.

Grappling arts (actually I am dealing mainly with my own experiences with Japanese arts YMMV) tend to be more like low explosives- like dynamite. You would not use low explosives to destroy a bridge, you use it for things like blowing stumps out of the ground. Using high explosives in the case of a stump would probably lead to you shattering it into a million splinters you would then have to dig out instead of just popping it out of the ground.

In grappling arts, the stikes do not go in with so much the purpose of damage as they do the purpose of knocking a guy back and slightly off balance. Stand up straight and lean your sholders back a hand's width. Feel how much harder it is to resist a throw from there. Also, by not pulling back the hand, the grappler can then go straight into a lock or a hold. So a slower push type strike is better if your art is built around the idea of locking or throwing the other guy.

This is basic stuff. But if you try to incorperate the striking techniques of an art good at it into a throwing system, there is going to be problems. I have seen people hit, retract their hand and then go back in to try to grab a lock against a guy who is damaged, but still on balance and able to resist the throw/ lock.

Not that you can't have both. Maybe you can have too much, but I am mainly talking about people who try to take judo/ sambo throws and use TKD/ karate striking with it. The result is, IMO, a big mess. Kind of like trying to get both the comfort of a stretch limo and the performance of a Ferrari. You are going to get neither, and not something that is really a good compromise either.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Paul Genge]

The biggest mistake people make when trying to compare what they do to how Bruce Lee developed his system is that they think that by dipping into several systems they can put it all together and form an effective system. This is not the case. Just look at Bruce Lee. The bedrock of what he developed was years of Wing Chun training.

Different systems can be mixed to good effect. Just look at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is a collection of nine schools all studied in depth by Takamatsu Sensei. These were then passed onto Hatsumi who has added his own flavour and skills from other areas.

Some of the Russian Systems combine the teachings of traditional Russian arts with the more modern combat sambo and the study of biomechanics very successfully. Other arts such as Systema which is taught by Michael Ryabko seems to be the combination of skills taught to him by his father and uncle then tested during his millitary service. It covers various ranges and skills from grappling to pistol shooting. However there are few with expertise in all areas of the System, but when exposed to a new area of work it is quickley assimilated by the student because the fundementals and philosophy are the same.

If you are looking for effective self defence in your training you are best looking for a school which has tried and tested skills which cover as many areas of combat as possible. That way the skills and techniques taught will complement each other and the methodology of the school. Otherwise you end up with a mish mash of techniques that start in different kamae and never quite work together.

Alright you may get the ability to switch between grappling and striking, but will you be able to do both at the same time?

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[OULobo]

So how far have you progressed with MMA/BJJ? I'm wondering if you are still relatively new or have been in them for a while but reflecting upon your experiences?

- Ceicei

I study at an MMA school now that I have been at for only about 4 months. Prior to that I studied BBJ for about 5 years and stopped three years ago. I'm not having too much trouble with the variation there. I brought that up more as an example of how it is easier to learn a drastically different system from my primary, than to try and learn a different variation of my primary system, which is an FMA style. I have been to quite a countless classes and seminars on other FMA systems and can't seem to get anything more than a few very basic new drills and some good tricks.

 

[47MartialMan]

This blending has been done for every martial art since the dawn of mankind.

 

[BaiKaiGuy]

I think it's good as long as it's done correctly. I do a hybrid style, and I'm quite pleased with the way it's been put together. You shouldn't try 6 at once, mind you, but taking things from Columns A,B,C, and D and creating a cohesive system is hardly bad. As I recall, that's the way the arts evolved, anyway...

 

[Mark Lynn]

While I have been exposed to several styles through training and seminars and such I have met people who only studied one system so for the sake of discussion (FWIW) I'll give you my opinon on why it can be good to only study one style.

To know a system in side and out, after studying it for several years (I mean generally 10+) helps you to mine the gold nuggets so to speak in that system. An Isshin ryu instructor that I knew once demonstrated self defense applications to me from the opening moves of a form (kata). To spend the years devoted to his training gives him an extremely deep level of understanding of technique and his body mechanics. Also in studying one system for the majority of your life depending upon your circumstances also developes a committment and level of trust in your school mates and your instructor.

For instance I've read books where the instructor held his classes and some of the students where with the guy for 10s of years training. In these instances I think the students become like family. I know in my karate instructors home dojo it is this way.

I think that with maturity in the arts the study turns personal or inward instead of just collecting or having the need to know more. So you obtain a higher level of learning as opposed to knowing more techniques in different arts. The example of punching in the post before comes to mind.

However if you study multiple arts and combine things than I believe unless you have a lot of time in a base system than it can be detrimental to your growth and understasnding as a martial artist. Moving from school to school, styles from style class to class I think can be confusing although fun.

Mark

 

[goshawk]

What do you think about instructors who bring in elements from more than one art?

I think it's pretty effective. We incorporate a bit of Muay Thai kickboxing techniques into our classes--I find they're really good for some of the more powerful leg-work (push-kicks, long knees, etc.) and for combinations, which are so very useful. Throw one punch and it might get blocked; throw five and something's going to get through. Just the habit of throwing things in combination is useful.

I think it's probably best if the main style being taught (kenpo for us) is adhered to and takes up the majority of the class time, but it's good to supplement with things from other styles. Show a Muay Thai combination that might work to follow up a technique, or a way to incorporate a ju-jitsu style joint manipulation into a kenpo (or whatever) technique.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I recommend in a sense the blending of styles or systems, I mean look at the history of many of the traditional arts we have today and they are blended arts from different systems. Wado, Aikido, Isshinryu, Gojoryu, I think all were in one form or another blended systems.

However I too am wary of schools that teach multiple systems that are taught by one instructor. Even if the instructor is ranked in each system.

In the TKD association I came from at brown and black belt they had kobudo training that was conducted at a central place and held monthly. This was extra cirricular training, they also would have special seminars to teach different things to again broaden their students experiences and knowledge. Anything from Arnis, Jujitsu, special self defense classes, kenpo etc. etc. but these were conducted from instructors in those systems.

What I don't like are the following.
1) One time long ago, for several months I went to an class and the instructor was blending jujitsu, gojoryu, wing chun and arnis (if I remember right), one subject a month on a rotation basis. But he was really a Gojoryu and Jujitsu guy. The Arnis he was learning from a guy in his backyard while he was teaching us.

2) A school that the master is a 10th, 8th, 7-1st black in multiple styles, Chinese Kenpo, Shoalin Gung Fu, TKD, Hapkido, Thai Chi, JKD and it's $100.00 a month per system. This is an exgeration but I have run into schols like this in the past 20 years. I mean one guy listed high BB ranks in very diverse systems and he was in his 40's. What he would do is raise up a brown or BB real quick sell the school and crusie onto the next town.

Mark

 

[andy]

don roley I like that example you gave.
My core system is a traditional japanese karate. after working my way thru the system I went on to wing chun, preying mantis and eventually kenpo.
It's my belief my greed for other martial phiolosophys gave me a finer appreciation for the 'subtle' body awareness(does that make any sense?)
that i would not have been able to obtain were I stuck in one system thruout life,
Before anyone starts wacking me with a bostaff- yes i do believe one needs a core system first.artyon:

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well if you want my two cents, at a point you should learn some thing new and incorporate it into your style. For instance: my Coung Nhu sensei used to do Aikido and some times incorporates some aikido techniques, and Tae kwon do which he did before that, and some stuff that the air force does (since he was in the air force). Now he is cross training in Wing Chun Kung Fu and does some times teach us Wing Chun. In Coung Nhu we have philosophies, one of them is the five loves of a sensei, I only rember one, which is growth. Growth means accepting and embracing change. Change like adding some technique from a different style and learning a different style to further understand your own by learning how the same technique is done in different style. Another reason to cross train is new styles. Very few styles of martial arts are based solely on one style with no outside influences. With out cross training really the only style of martial arts that would be around is boxing and wrestling. Maybe not even them. Blending styles is also why Wing Chun Kung Fu has weapons. Originally Wing Chun was only disarmed. Then at a point one of the students taught a practioner of another style some wing chun and was taught by him how to use the double butterfly knifes that he specialized in. latter they were added to the curriculum, and the six and a half foot pole which was also learned in the same way. But I’m not saying you should do three different styles at once. Get a black belt in one; keep training in it and another at the same time. But hay what ever floats your boat.

hay no talking unless it's about what your doing, shut up and train.
sensei wes


john

 

[CuongNhuka]

ohhh what the hell does bjj stand for?????

 

[MJS]

ohhh what the hell does bjj stand for?????

Brazilian Jujutsu

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thanks a suck at abbreviations (and spelling, but that is another matter).

 

[searcher]

Following the consensus of previous posters I will agree that it can be done if you have a solid base to work from. We don't have to look very far to get a large number of styles that have fromed from one person taking what they learned from different instructors and combining it to make a new style. From most of my research this is what happened in most of the Okinawan styles that we have today. Different guys traveling around and learning what they could from different masters then going and putting what they learned together and testing it out. Isshin-ryu, Ryuei-ryu, Chong-han TKD, Okinawan Kobudo, Hung-gar kung-fu, are all examples of styles that were blended by their founder. This is just a small list, there are more out there.

I also agree that it is more than looking at what you have learned like an all-you-can-eat resturant. You don't just go and take a little of this and a little of that, put it in a jar and shake it up. You have to do some serious training and test what you are doing to find if it is working or not. If it does not work, fix what is wrong and procede.