Does mixing belts in a gym tend to create drama?

[Fungus]

Focus on the skill not the belt. People who cannot do this will run into issues like this.

Beware...

 

[isshinryuronin]

The only thing that will affect the promotion is the person's skill set.

This is where the seed of the problem resides. Different arts/schools have different views on the level of skill required for a particular belt.

You'll only have this problem if you are trying to promote someone on the basis of belt color.

A good chunk of responsibility lies with the student's motivation. Those who are in an art just to get a black belt will likely not stick with BJJ or some karate schools where it may take 5 years or more. They would be happier with TKD as in many (not all) cases they can achieve this in 3 years or less.

But from a non-commercial viewpoint, who cares about their shallow goals? Then again, one may start their training with just a belt color in mind, only to find the art speak to them, thus discovering that skill and knowledge mean more than a belt. This can be satisfying for an instructor.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Beware...

I've seen this actually happen in class.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The only thing that will affect the promotion is the person's skill set. You'll only have this problem if you are trying to promote someone on the basis of belt color.

Can you take a class that teaches a skill set that will help you learn the other class faster? Of course but you would still have to demonstrate your ability to be functional with that skill. No progresses through BJJ without functional skills. The same can be said about TKD if it's required that students spar and demonstrate through sparring their ability to use a technique

In a lot of TMA schools you don't need to show ability to use a technique through sparring. If you can demo the technique then you can be promoted. In grappling, you have to be functional. There's no way around it. The same cannot be said about TKD, Kung Fu, Karate, or similar systems.

If you focus on the skill set then it will be no problem. This way the speed that you are promoted is based on your usable skill set.





Focus on the skill not the belt. People who cannot do this will run into issues like this.

Let the students ability to apply the skills determine the promotion speed. Those who are having trouble just get extra help in learning the skills. It's up to the student to train and the instructo teach in a way that most can learn from and to adjust teaching method according to help students to grasp the ability.

You're talking about how it's supposed to be on paper. I'm talking about how it could possibly end up in practice.

 

[geezer]

This is where the seed of the problem resides. Different arts/schools have different views on the level of skill required for a particular belt.

So the problem is that the same belt (rank) means very different things in different styles?

That doesn't seem like much of a problem if the difference is clearly explained. My dad was a captain in the US Army during Korea. Later, his current wife's nephew was the captain of a ship in the US Navy ...a far more important rank, yet still called a "captain". Pretty much everybody understands the difference ...so there's really no problem.

 

[geezer]

I personally would never allow 2 different schools to operate in the same building. That's just asking for trouble. If they want to teach at my gym then they would do so with the understanding that they are teaching a class in my gym and not a school. Gym standards and requirements apply to classes. I wouldn't give the teachers of those classes to roam free.

I read this post, as well as your following post, further down and still did not really understand the distinction between someone running a "class" at your gym and a "school" at your gym. Nor did I understand your rationale.

Many years ago, I briefly taught a Wing Chun class at a TKD school run by a friend of mine (who was also my son's TKD instructor). It was a small class and about half the students were his, the rest came along with me and they paid to "join" his school (but just so they could take my class). After a while most of his TKD students dropped out so I discontinued the class and found a new location for my students.

Instead, I just rented space at a neighborhood boxing gym to run my Wing Chun class. I paid rent, got a key, paid my own insurance, association dues, etc. and ran my own classes during my allotted time. We had nothing to do with the boxing and grappling classes there. So, even though we were a very small group, I'd say we were a separate "school".

By your description, I assume you would call the first set up "having a class at your gym" and the second situation "running a school at your gym". In my own experience, the second set up worked a whole lot better for everyone involved. I continued that class for several years until the pandemic shut everybody down and I decided to pretty much retire from teaching publicly.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Might seem like a silly question, but it's one that I think might be worth bringing up. Currently I'm 30 minutes away from my BJJ gym and 30 hours away from my TKD gym. There isn't much in the way of martial arts in my current town. I'd like to build a TKD gym here, also looking at bringing BJJ here. I'm thinking about the viability of both being under one roof.

One worry I have is that the faster black belts on the TKD side might be looked down on by the BJJ side and create some tension between the two. I love both arts. I wouldn't want to create a place where there's disrespect or bullying between the classes.

Have you been in a gym where there are wildly different ranking systems in the different classes? Did that create any drama? How were the tensions resolved?

I think that's a very sensible question, myself. And I don't think the answer is particularly straightforward either. It depends on a few things, and even then can be unpredictable.

I can see a couple of different combinations possible here. Maybe three.

1. You have a school where the two styles sit side-by-side
2. You have a school that teaches a primary style and offers a secondary style

In my first FMA school (my only brick-and-mortar FMA school, I suppose), my instructors taught taekwondo and Doce Pares eskrima one alongside the other. They were parallel programs, with taekwondo perhaps being slightly larger, by virtue of being the more familiar of the two.

In that scenario, there were a fair few people who trained both. (I've trained both myself, but my taekwondo was done prior to arriving at this school.) There were far fewer people from the FMA side who felt the taekwondo side wasn't hardcore enough. But that attitude is pure silliness in my view. Gassing on about being a "knife guy" doesn't make you hardcore. It just makes you sound like a git.

For the most part, though, those two styles co-existed peaceably, without drama. And, generally, with mutual respect and healthy crossover.

Now, I'm not suggesting that this represents most BJJ players. Though that's not my area of expertise, the BJJ players I have known have been very friendly and respectful. I have certainly observed, though, incidences of people looking down on taekwondo from other styles. Based on the rapidity of progressing through the ranks, the popularity of the style with young kids, etc.

All I can say is that this is a people problem more than a style problem. As the school's leader, it would be on you to set the tone of that relationship. If you treat both styles with respect, then the long-term students at your school will too. And those who don't won't stay. Which is fine.

I think you're just honest about the fact that the two styles operate in different ways and have different approaches to their different goals. People are free to take or leave that explanation. But, if they take it, this is how it's going to be.

I haven't run a school myself (though I've certainly run classes), but it seems to me that you need to make your decisions, come to your peace with them, and stand by them as necessary.

The rest will sort itself out.

 

[isshinryuronin]

So the problem is that the same belt (rank) means very different things in different styles?

Not a problem for me.

That doesn't seem like much of a problem if the difference is clearly explained

I agree - see below:

I think if you explain a little about each art to the other guys, including ranks, but other concepts as well, all will be able to appreciate each other's hard work and dedication to their respective art. While there are stark differences between TKD and BJJ, there are also some similarities that can bring all together. It's a matter of mutual respect. All starts from the top.

 

[J. Pickard]

There is a shorin ryu school in my town that also has bjj classes. The shorin ryu sensei owns the school and is like 5th dan or something in his karate but a blue belt in bjj. There is never any disrespect between the different styles because everyone knows belts different arts don't always mean the same thing

 

[JowGaWolf]

Different arts/schools have different views on the level of skill required for a particular belt.

I don't see a problem with that. TKD and BJJ aren't the same thing so it only makes sense that the skill levels to get a particular belt will be different. It's even better because they teach different techniques.

When a student is in a BJJ class then they should understand that they are doing BJJ and not TKD.

The instructor should be providing "Training Guidance" and "Training Mindsets" in which students are recommended to adopt based on the martial art system they are training in. Your gym. You decide the culture, focus, and behavioral standards that you wish to see members display.

If you want to learn TKD skills, then take TKD. Why? Because you can't learn a full skill TKD skill set in BJJ. Want to learn BJJ? Take BJJ class because TKD only teaches TKD.
When I was teaching Jow Ga, it didn't matter what belt or skill level they were at in another school. Everyone starts at the beginning. If you had skills that were of benefit to doing Jow Ga then it just meant that it made things easier, and you advanced much faster because of the skill set.

If you own a gym, then you decide who you want to market to. If you want to attract people who only care about the belt, then advertise about how easy it is to get the belt and that everyone gets one. If you want to attract people who care about the skills. Then advertise in a way that talks about how the gym focuses on the skill so that the student is functional. Business wise. I would leave that stuff up to students to decide. Any future students who register should already know what is expected of their training before they even join.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A good chunk of responsibility lies with the student's motivation.

Good thing leaders motivate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've never seen drama. People know that different arts award rank at different times. People will attend both classes if they want, or just one, and wear the appropriate belt for the appropriate class.

Agreed. I don't do BJJ, but I have taught different systems with different attitudes about rank in the same gym. It wasn't a problem. You run the gym? You set the tone and expectations.

Know a guy who is a BJJ Black belt, and runs his own school where he teaches Kung Fu, Sanshou, Taijiquan and Kyokushin Karate. There are no issues with different belts at his school. He does have some crossover though

 

[JowGaWolf]

I read this post, as well as your following post, further down and still did not really understand the distinction between someone running a "class" at your gym and a "school" at your gym. Nor did I understand your rationale.

If you don't want to have problems the your gym should say that it offers BJJ classes and TKD classes. It should not say. There's a BJJ school and a TKD school. Those should be part of the gym and not separate schools.

If BJJ and TKD operate as a separate school under the same roof then you'll get unhealthy competition for attracting students.

Example. If your school and my school train in the same building, then it would benefit me and my school if I can take public interest away from your school. One way to do that could be to say that my students reach Black Belt before your students. If you we operated as a "class" that's offered under what a gym offers, then anyone that comes to the gym will be a benefit for our attendance.

Real world example: Crazy 88 is a gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, and Judo. These are classes that you can take as a member of Crazy88.

Crazy 88 doesn't have a separate BJJ school, a Judo school, or a Muay Thai School. Everything falls under the name of Crazy 88. People earn belts and train with each other. Judo may roll with BJJ as part of their training. Or they may mix it up with Muay Thai so they can learn how to apply BJJ skills against Muay Thai or Muay Thai can train their skills against BJJ. Got it?

 

[JowGaWolf]

We had nothing to do with the boxing and grappling classes there. So, even though we were a very small group, I'd say we were a separate "school".

From how you explain it, it sounds as if you were a class and you didn't advertise yourself as a school. If you advertised as a school then what was the name of your Wing Chun School?

 

[JowGaWolf]

He does have some crossover though

Yeah but this is a good thing. There were so many days where I wished students could spar without people from other systems.

 

[skribs]

A good chunk of responsibility lies with the student's motivation. Those who are in an art just to get a black belt will likely not stick with BJJ or some karate schools where it may take 5 years or more. They would be happier with TKD as in many (not all) cases they can achieve this in 3 years or less.

Actually what's funny is IBJJF essentially requires quick promotions for kids to keep them interested.

 

[skribs]

For the most part, though, those two styles co-existed peaceably, without drama. And, generally, with mutual respect and healthy crossover.

Now, I'm not suggesting that this represents most BJJ players. Though that's not my area of expertise, the BJJ players I have known have been very friendly and respectful. I have certainly observed, though, incidences of people looking down on taekwondo from other styles. Based on the rapidity of progressing through the ranks, the popularity of the style with young kids, etc.

I think part of this is that it was the same instructors. I would most likely be trying to find an upper belt in BJJ to run that class at my school.

I do think the BJJ folks I've met in person have been respectful of my TKD training. Most people online are not. I don't know how much of that is BJJ folks vs. online folks.

 

[skribs]

I suppose that could theoretically happen. To the best of my knowledge, my friend follows standard TKD and BJJ ranking guidelines at his school and has not had any issue with it.

Out of curiosity, what's the fastest someone can get a black belt (without exception) at this school?

For example, at my old school, it was 2.5 years. 9 tests at 2 months each, 3 more tests at 4 months each, assuming you were ready every time.

 

[isshinryuronin]

quick promotions for kids

This is a thread all by itself. Want to start it?

 

[skribs]

This is a thread all by itself. Want to start it?

Nah. But you can.