Blending Styles

[Cruentus]

One more thing regarding style mixing...

Some styles and arts blend realy well, while others don't. Some styles encourage the the learning of other systems such as JKD or Modern Arnis; While others don't.

If someone told me they teach Traditional Gung Fu, like a long fist form based style, along with BJJ, Peketi Tersia, Silat, and Karate, I would be like Huh? Particularly because many traditional form based styles are ment to not be mixed with other systems (in the old days, your teacher would not let you study another system until you mastered his).

If someone told me they teach Inosanto System along with JKD, Peketi Tersia, Penjak Silat, and Submission Grappling, that might be more believable because of the blend. Inosanto incourages training in other styles along with his, as does JKD, and "submission grappling" is nonspecific to a particular style.

So, a lot of times, it depends on the blend. I still say to claim to teach over 4 styles by yourself could be a little much, but then again it depends on what styles.

 

[Cruentus]

But I have a Question.

I see that someone voted "No, mixing causes more harm then good?"

I don't mean to "call you out", but I am curious to hear a different viewpoint. If you believe mixing causes more harm then good (which I believe it can if done 'incorrectly') then could you give us your arguement?

Inquiring minds need to know!

 

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by PAUL
Neat...which Filipino Art, and is the teacher anyone I'd know?

Just curious! :asian:

Stickdummy, who is a member of the board

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by PAUL
But I have a Question.

I see that someone voted "No, mixing causes more harm then good?"

I don't mean to "call you out", but I am curious to hear a different viewpoint. If you believe mixing causes more harm then good (which I believe it can if done 'incorrectly') then could you give us your arguement?

Inquiring minds need to know!

Sure...

students can get confused.

For example, TKD "front stance" is very similar to Kenpo "Forward Bo" but not the same. Because they're so close, its easy to get stuff mixed up if you're just beginning.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

students can get confused.

For example, TKD "front stance" is very similar to Kenpo "Forward Bo" but not the same. Because they're so close, its easy to get stuff mixed up if you're just beginning.

So true. This was really painful when I did Shotokan in college

Kenpo Inward Block = Shotokan Outside Block
Kenpo Outward Block = Shotokan Inside Block

At least they didn't switch the Upward and Downward blocks!!!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Even without the Jarhead in your screen name that one phrase gives away the fact that you're a former Marine. I've never heard anyone outside the Corps use the word "behoove".

Now that you mention it, I think the first time I heard that was in Boot Camp...or the Fleet. I think my Dad, another Marine, might have used it.

I'll now have to study the etiology of the word.

Steve, it's the guys that don't have the integrity to admit that they aren't qualified to teach every one of the systems that they offer or simply watch a video or read a book and try to mix it into what ever they're teaching that causes the problems with mixing styles in a school.

Understood. I wanted it clear to 7 Star that I wasn't claiming expertise in all those systems offered at my place.

That charge was leveled at me once by a local guy who had NO idea how our programs worked here. He looked at our curriculum and then suggested I was claiming mastery in a dozen systems...which angered me greatly.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Nightingale]

behoove-

my dad uses that word all the time, so consequently, I use it. My dad was never in the service (was 1 number away from Vietnam) but my grandfather served in WWII. Maybe that's where he picked it up.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
If you're wondering about ME, then know I only teach three of those styles. I'm not qualified to teach the other arts, and never have claimed to be. The instructors of the other systems are certified in those systems.

I wasn't meaning you at all, sorry if it came across as such. I mean one person who teaches 7 or 8 arts in their class. It has to get not only confusing but watered down as well.

On a personal note, I have used behoove myslef many times, but I think I did get it from a buddy that was in the marines before moving to NSA. Thats interesting.

7sm

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I wasn't meaning you at all, sorry if it came across as such.

Roger. Got it. Thanks.


Steve

 

[tshadowchaser]

First the instructor most know what he/she isdoing in each style.
If incorporated into the nights study a little judo, goes well with many arts. The hand techs. of kenpo would go great with the feet of TKD.
Mixing in a little knowledge from other styles is a good way to give your students a wider more knowledgeable outlook on the martial arts

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I've seen a large amount of xenophobia when it comes to cross training in other systems. I attribute this to one or more of the following reasons:

1. Cultural dictates---supposedly in some asian cultures it is seen as "rude" or disloyal to train under more than one instructor.

2. Ethnic bias--arts from one country are frowned upon because the country they're from is considered socially or culturally inferior. (I get really irritated by this...particularly when Americans buy into the bias.)

3. Personal ego issues--this is where an insecure instructor forbids his students from training with another instructor in another system lest it somehow minimize student perceptions of his own abilities or his personality.

4. Financial competitiveness--An instructor will forbid a student from training in another school's system because that school is located within the market radius of his own school. While this is a fully understandable concern for any school owner, trashing a system as a guise for financial competitiveness is incorrect and disingenuous.

5. Personal enmity--the two instructors in question have had it out with each other and have a personal friction between them. In lieu of being open with their issues they resort to trashing each other's styles.


Any one of these, or any combination of these, can color an instructor's perceptions of an art and prevent him from allowing his students to cross train.


Regards,


Steve

 

[theletch1]

3. Personal ego issues--this is where an insecure instructor forbids his students from training with another instructor in another system lest it somehow minimize student perceptions of his own abilities or his personality.

I ran into this while looking for a new school a year or so ago. I interviewed many different instructors before deciding on my current school. One of the instructors let it be known right off the bat that he would not train a student who was studying with another instructor. This was the big alarm bell for this particular school that kept me looking.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

If I had a potential student come in and he or she was training with another instructor...it'd depend on who the other instructor was before I'd force the student to decide between the two of us. There are three people I view as competitiors, and I ask students to choose between them or me. I make no bones about it and don't try to hide that its a business issue.

Still others I encourage our students to cross train with. I don't hesitate to steer them to the Indiana University BJJ club, for instance. I know the folks there...their technique is good, they're good people, and they're safe.

Safety would be another issue. If one of our students came to me and asked to train with instructor "X", and I knew this guy had a history of hurting students or allowing unsafe practices on the mat...I'd either tell the student "no" or explain to them the situation.




Regards,


Steve

 

[RCastillo]

I've incorporated TKD kicking arsenal into Kenpo becuase I spent so many years in TKD. Their kicking has been broken down to it's finest point, and made me better also. So when I got back into Kenpo, I took with me what I learned. While I'm not a great kicker, if I can develop one who has the potential to do great, then that's a plus for me, and that person. I don't see alot of major differences between the two, but repsect those experts in both areas.

When it comes to self defense though, I'm a practical person in regards to the kicking.:asian:

 

[bscastro]

I think some of these ideas have been mentioned in previous posts, but here's my two cents:
I think cross-training is good within certain parameters:
1. The student enjoys it. A couple times I've seen people who are taking several arts because they think they need to. I'm a big believer that people should do what they want to. However, that goes to my second point...
2. You do not get confused. I think this is an individual choice. Some students can study several styles simultaneously and pick it up easily. Others don't. I think for myself, within JKD we study different "aspects" of martial arts that come from different styles, but because it is incorporated in a single program, it doesn't cause too much confusion. However, I think if I were to train with different instructors in very different styles, it would not be as beneficial to me.
3. You understand the reasons for training in different styles. I had a friend who studied 4 different arts under 4 different teachers simultaneously. What happened was that he got so-so at each one of them without really getting good at either one. His purpose was that he could "defend himself" from any style. However, I think that if he concentrated on one, maybe two instead (which he did later and now is an excellent martial artist) that he would serve his purposes better in the long run.

I guess the main thing is that the individual reflect on his own situation and what's best for him. I think eventually if people are driven to improve and learn, they will cross-train--or at least dabble in other arts. However, I think that when and how that should happen depends on the individual.

Bryan

 

[Black Bear]

As Dan Inosanto said, there are only so many ways to kill a man, and everybody invented them.

Techniques don't belong to any particular system or culture. In Matt Thornton's words, the technique belongs to whoever can make it work. Or in Tony Blauer's words, nobody has a patent on the truth.

Everyone should crosstrain. If they don't, they they'll just accept whatever narrative their instructor gives for why their method is the best. You know exactly what I mean. Everyone has reasons they give why they think their art is the best:

"Why, it's the single most popular art in the world."

"It's over 500 years old. Millions of Chinese wouldn't do it for 500 years if it didn't work. So you KNOW it's good."

"It can be learned in a matter of months, not years."

"Long range is the best. You can keep people away with your kicks. And besides, legs are more powerful than arms."

"Real assaults happen close-in. If you know how to fight in-close, you can devastate people. And it eliminates reach advantages, so it's great for smaller people to defend themselves."

"You know, 90% of fights end up on the ground."

"Our system has kicks AND punches AND locks AND throws AND takedowns."

"Yes, but they do them ALL badly. Ours is more biomechanically correct. You don't want to kick high in self-defense like THOSE people do."

"Ours is completely defensive, completely circular, it uses the opponent's force against him. How can you beat a bigger person using force?"

You see, everyone has reasons why their art is the best, or the most effective in fighting or self-defense. They all believe it. They won't say it here on the board, but they did pick that art, didn't they? They're spending tons of their free time in it, instead of another.

Only thing is... If one is best for one reason--and I mean best overall, because of course there are parameters--doesn't that mean that the others are not also "the best"?

The only way to find the truth in combat is to experience it for yourself. Either that or just take someone's word. You have to cross-train. Blend? Hmph. Sure, somewhat, but you'll discard more than you blend.

Everything that you have just read is false. Nobody believes it, not even the person who wrote it. And even if it were, it doesn't apply to YOUR school, YOUR art, because YOUR master has far more wisdom and integrity than ANY other martial arts master. So don't tell me why I'm wrong. Just go back to blindly believing whatever someone tells you. That's right. Your style is the best, or your "blend"is best, or whatever it is you do.

 

[markulous]

I pretty much agree with you black bear. This saying is from Buddhism I believe:

"When the strong wind comes, the tall oak is the first to fall. The willow stands because its roots are far."

So in other words, be a jack of all trades. Don't commit yourself to one art your whole life. Atleast that's what I think.

 

[Black Bear]

That's cool. But I don't know if you know the other half of the expression, "jack of all trades"

"... master of none". I know that's not what you mean, but haha, I just thought I'd mention that.

An intellectually-honest person should explore.

 

[8253]

Originally posted by Nightingale
What do you think about instructors who bring in elements from more than one art? Like a school that teaches both Kenpo and TKD, or both TKD and BJJ? I don't mean two separate instructors, one teaching a TKD class, and one teaching a BJJ class at different times, but one class encorporating elements of both styles?

I'm not talking specifically about the arts mentioned above, but in general.

A wise person would never limit his knowledge and should always expand on experiences that have worked. You can never know too much.
Incorporation of different Arts can lead to more insight as to why your Art is the way it is, it can also teach you to have a better reaction to opponents in the different Arts.

 

[MichiganTKD]

There's a difference between understanding how a different style works so that you can defend against it, and blending two or more styles together. Different styles have different philosophies, not all of them complimentary.
For example, Tae Kwon Do, isshin-ryu, and Kenpo kicking are executed differently. Same kick, three different ways to do it. Your body adapts to doing a technique a certain way. By trying to learn three different ways of kicking, you run the risk of getting confused.
Not to say that certain aikido techniques wouldn't work in a situation, but by focusing on the techniques rather than the whole package, you end up with this superficial mish-mash.
But it goes back to the Western mentality-if one is good, three is better.