Blackbelt

[gyaku-zuki queen]

going back to that original post, if you got your BB but havent trained for a long time, your still technically a black belt. becuse you did earn it way back when. you may have forgotten a bit, but you learned what you needed to at one point.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Andrew, I had to comment after reading all the posts here. Your insight into teaching ma is far more Eastern than Western. We Westerners were given the belt system because it's primarily our way of thinking. You achieve, and are rewarded with something tangible.

One of my instructors once told me that black belt is a state of being, not the "rag which holds up my uniform". And, as was pointed out, once you earn a degree, it is yours for life.

As to returning to training and putting a white belt on after attaining a high rank, I've done that twice. Makes no difference to me because I'm there to learn for myself, no one else. KT

 

[MJS]

Are you still a Blackbelt after you give up the Martial Arts ( for lets say 10 years ). What I guess I am trying to say is should someone still consider themselves a blackbelt after not training for a extended period of time

Yes, you're still a BB. That is something that you've earned and can't be taken away from you. Just like MichiganTKD stated, after you finish high school, you still have that diploma even if you never continue your education.

Mike

 

[Enson]

i agree that once you have earned it... its yours. there is no one that can take that away from you.

in my system we only use 3 belts. grey, red, black.
grey=student. no rules that because i only have a year into it i can't learn what someone else is learning.(ruff summary) about mastering the technique regardless of what belt that will get you. this is equal to your white through 1rst degree black... maybe higher (depends on person).
red=instructor. means teacher and self perfecting. discovering how to make these moves your own and developing new moves that come from within. this would be your dans/degrees in other arts.
black=master/lifestylist. this is what you are, and this is how you do it.
like i said this is a ruff summary but i know what andrew green is speaking of.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I'm not sure if a black belt cannot be revoked. If I issue a black belt and certificate through my organization, I can revoke it as well, or at least cut the student. Therefore, to ensure my credibility, it is my obligation to recommend students to test only those who I feel measure up to the standards of black belt and I can trust.

Yes, people do promote themselves, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm not sure if a black belt cannot be revoked. If I issue a black belt and certificate through my organization, I can revoke it as well, or at least cut the student. Therefore, to ensure my credibility, it is my obligation to recommend students to test only those who I feel measure up to the standards of black belt and I can trust.

Yes, people do promote themselves, but it doesn't make it right.

That would be like going to University, passing a exam, and then a few years later the University changing its mind. it doesn't work that way, once you've passed the test, you've passed the test. No one can take that away from you.

Yes, your association can revoke there memebrship, but that doesn't change the fact that you gave them that rank.

Promotions at high levels are almost always based on politics and who is connected to whom. Some promote themselves, some form an association then have there own association promote them, some get there students to promote them. Some promote there peers and have there peers promote them. Some pay a fee for an outside person / association to promote them.

Really, who cares? Rank is irrelevant, skill is what counts.

Oh well, not a worry of mine anymore.

 

[Flatlander]

Just to throw another log on the fire, here, a few are drawing analogies to the similarity between BB and a university degree. A couple of problems that I see with that:

1) A BB is a reflection of your physical skill, both knowledge AND capability. Should one choose to stop training or practicing, their physical abilities will suffer. Decades later, I'm sure its reasonable to assume that the BB practitioner who has taken an extended sabbatical will no longer move with anywhere near the skill or power or flexibility or endurance that they used to. At what level do you think they would be able to , unprepared, test in this scenario?

2) Consider the person who has aquired their degree in any discipline in 1940. In the year 2004, would their knowledge base be sufficient to equate to a recent grad, given the 1940 grad did not keep up with current trends and new discoveries and methods?

I guess it depends upon how one defines their BB. Is it a reflection of an achievement at some point in time, or of their current ability?

 

[cblaze230]

After i spent nearly every waking hour at the dojo training, learning, then teaching until i was promoted to BB i can say that i was elated that after the years of training i was able to attain my goal. several years later while training i realised that the coveted BB was just another colored belt signifying the beginning of a lifestyle of awareness and mastery of myself. Now a days i don't really get hung up on the BB rank but the hunger for more applicable knowlegde will always be there. If that means that i will have to be promoted through the dans to get it so be it but you can always learn from anybody. studets, instructors, friends, strangers....life is a lesson.

 

[Andrew Green]

1) A BB is a reflection of your physical skill, both knowledge AND capability. Should one choose to stop training or practicing, their physical abilities will suffer. Decades later, I'm sure its reasonable to assume that the BB practitioner who has taken an extended sabbatical will no longer move with anywhere near the skill or power or flexibility or endurance that they used to. At what level do you think they would be able to , unprepared, test in this scenario?

If it is a symbol of current ability then regular retesting would be needed. What to do about those that get there belt then stop training and only teach? SHould they be moved down in rank cause they can't do the stuff anymore? Or how about those that simply get to old to meet the physical demands?

2) Consider the person who has aquired their degree in any discipline in 1940. In the year 2004, would their knowledge base be sufficient to equate to a recent grad, given the 1940 grad did not keep up with current trends and new discoveries and methods?

Well in that case other things come into play to. Certification alone is not what gets looked at. Certifcation & Experience combined are what counts in the real world.

There are no controls on rank, anyone can wear whatever rank they like whenever they like. Just not where they like to. In any school whoever is in charge makes the rules. If they want to wear a belt that is up to them, if they want you to wear a belt that is up to them. If you disagree with them you can either live with it or leave.

 

[Andrew Green]

Andrew, I had to comment after reading all the posts here. Your insight into teaching ma is far more Eastern than Western. We Westerners were given the belt system because it's primarily our way of thinking. You achieve, and are rewarded with something tangible.

I would disagree.

Western sports have no real equivalent of the belt system.

We have A teams, B teams, different coaching levels, but nothing like a belt system.

The belt system is much more Japanese, in that a paper trail is needed for everything, and certification is needed for everything.

 

[TigerWoman]

This is very thought provoking, I can see. I agree that once you get your black belt, you always have it, earned it and will be it. Its up to you to keep your skills up and progress. Most adults who are already strongly motivated would keep progressing if they keep working. Some adults aren't motivated though and they want the easy carrot. As a person of the "rolls", I would think they would want to know by some means if they were progressing and by testing that would provide them with that knowledge. And how the instructor or all the instructors would know each person's level would be difficult to know. Notecards? Sometimes I felt like I was going in reverse in my training and the objectivity of the test got me to focus on what I had to do to train for it.

I can imagine how it would be in a class with no belt ranking, where most are black belts and high rank now. Probably no different except no recognition/milestone marker or test to go to 2nd dan or master either for that matter. So if no belts, just thinking, no extra bowing to the master who is just one of the guys then? Because if you do away with rank as in military, he becomes just like a high school teacher or physical fitness instructor. That actually sounds really good! And I still would need some kind of belt to keep my uniform together or no uniform?. TW

 

[Flatlander]

If it is a symbol of current ability then regular retesting would be needed.

I agree.

What to do about those that get there belt then stop training and only teach? SHould they be moved down in rank cause they can't do the stuff anymore?

If one is teaching, then are they not still training, practicing, moving? I don't see a case for someone's skills becoming rusty here. Unless they are a lazy teacher. But who would admit to that?

Well in that case other things come into play to. Certification alone is not what gets looked at. Certifcation & Experience combined are what counts in the real world.

Precisely. Now, a new grad, vs. one from 1940 that didn't work in the field...for both, relevant experience = zero....

There are no controls on rank, anyone can wear whatever rank they like whenever they like. Just not where they like to. In any school whoever is in charge makes the rules. If they want to wear a belt that is up to them, if they want you to wear a belt that is up to them. If you disagree with them you can either live with it or leave.

Agreed.

 

[satans.barber]

Are you still a Blackbelt after you give up the Martial Arts ( for lets say 10 years ). What I guess I am trying to say is should someone still consider themselves a blackbelt after not training for a extended period of time

Coloured belts are irrelevant, it's the knowledge you retain that's important.

Ian.

 

[Shogun]

Coloured belts are irrelevant, it's the knowledge you retain that's important.

Ian.

Very true. your belt is something that shows that you have worked hard, but only in that particular Dojo. It may be a recognition mark, but at the same time, if your belt was revoked, you would still retain the knowledge you have.

 

[Sarah]

Very true. your belt is something that shows that you have worked hard, but only in that particular Dojo. It may be a recognition mark, but at the same time, if your belt was revoked, you would still retain the knowledge you have.

I agree with your point that the Belt you earn is relevant to that Dojo.

We have had a couple of young BB in Traditional TKD come to our club, they were wearing their BB with there old uniform which was cool. However not long into it the adopted our Dojo's BB uniform, not many people were to impressed with this as their style is quite different to how we train and feel that they are not deserving of our BB uniforms, but they are only teenages so not much was made of it.

What are some opinions on this?? Do you think it is Ok to ware your BB at different Dojo's or would it be more respectful to opt for a White Belt until you do a BB grading?

 

[James Kovacich]

Just to throw another log on the fire, here, a few are drawing analogies to the similarity between BB and a university degree. A couple of problems that I see with that:

1) A BB is a reflection of your physical skill, both knowledge AND capability. Should one choose to stop training or practicing, their physical abilities will suffer. Decades later, I'm sure its reasonable to assume that the BB practitioner who has taken an extended sabbatical will no longer move with anywhere near the skill or power or flexibility or endurance that they used to. At what level do you think they would be able to , unprepared, test in this scenario?

2) Consider the person who has aquired their degree in any discipline in 1940. In the year 2004, would their knowledge base be sufficient to equate to a recent grad, given the 1940 grad did not keep up with current trends and new discoveries and methods?

I guess it depends upon how one defines their BB. Is it a reflection of an achievement at some point in time, or of their current ability?

What about an aged master who can barely walk or is in a wheelchair? Has he lost his Knowledge? Can he run his organization? I'll give you an example. Sijo Emperado, Grandmaster of Kajukenbo.

A black belt is JUST the beginning of the journey.

 

[Shogun]

I think one should only wear their BB at another dojo if the instructor says its ok. I dont even think its OK to ask. I think it should be an Honorary thing.

 

[auxprix]

I would disagree.

Western sports have no real equivalent of the belt system.

We have A teams, B teams, different coaching levels, but nothing like a belt system.

The belt system is much more Japanese, in that a paper trail is needed for everything, and certification is needed for everything.

I disagree with you on this. Western cultures tend to be very goal-oriented, while the east is less so. The belt system reflects this. It gives you a ways to continuously work up to, and achieve. Is this bad? No! Goal setting is an important part of our culture. Just turn on Dr. Phil, or any other self-help guru. One subject they'll constantly come back to is the idea of goal setting. I'm not trying to trash your way of doing things. I'm really impressed that you were able to get good results from implementing this system. I think that it shows that you are very skillful at motivating students.

Belts themselves are an invention of Kano for the Kodokan (Judo). Origionaly, it was a 2 belt system(white and black), to distinguish between the Kyu and Dan's. Eventually, the brown belt was introduced to indicate someone approaching the Black Belt. I don't know if Kano had anything to do with the Brown belt, it may have been introduced after he died.

Once martial arts came to the west, more colored belts were introduced to track progress. So the idea behind many colored belts is often attributed to our culture.

As for the Japanese Beuracracy (sp?) tie-in, I would argue that this is mainly due to western influence on their society.

But enough talk...I gotta go to the dojo!!!!

 

[Sarah]

I disagree with you on this. Western cultures tend to be very goal-oriented, while the east is less so. The belt system reflects this. It gives you a ways to continuously work up to, and achieve. Is this bad? No! Goal setting is an important part of our culture. Just turn on Dr. Phil, or any other self-help guru. One subject they'll constantly come back to is the idea of goal setting. I'm not trying to trash your way of doing things. I'm really impressed that you were able to get good results from implementing this system. I think that it shows that you are very skillful at motivating students.

Belts themselves are an invention of Kano for the Kodokan (Judo). Origionaly, it was a 2 belt system(white and black), to distinguish between the Kyu and Dan's. Eventually, the brown belt was introduced to indicate someone approaching the Black Belt. I don't know if Kano had anything to do with the Brown belt, it may have been introduced after he died.

Once martial arts came to the west, more colored belts were introduced to track progress. So the idea behind many colored belts is often attributed to our culture.

As for the Japanese Beuracracy (sp?) tie-in, I would argue that this is mainly due to western influence on their society.

But enough talk...I gotta go to the dojo!!!!

I think both systems have their advantages, and students over there are lucky to have both to choose from.

 

[Shogun]

The original system (Kihon, shoden, Chuden Okuden, Kaiden, Menkyo kaiden) of Japan are a very interesting concept. it is not really used anymore, although in some arts, still give out Kaiden with Shodan.