black belts

[Gerry Seymour]

When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow and it will glow in the dark.

Tony and the Amazing Technicolor Dreambelt

 

[PhotonGuy]

is the 6th dan the max you can attain?

Depends on the system. In many systems I've seen 10th dan is the highest.

 

[pgsmith]

When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow and it will glow in the dark.

Well, that does away with any of your ninja training then eh? Hard to be invisible when your belt glows.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well, that does away with any of your ninja training then eh? Hard to be invisible when your belt glows.

My belt will glow in the dark so brightly that it will destroy the night vision of any attacker, allowing me to defeat them while they are temporarily blinded. It's a variant of the metsubishi tactics used by the ninja of yore.

 

[JR 137]

My belt will glow in the dark so brightly that it will destroy the night vision of any attacker, allowing me to defeat them while they are temporarily blinded. It's a variant of the metsubishi tactics used by the ninja of yore.

And you can turn it on and off with your mind.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Depends on the system. In many systems I've seen 10th dan is the highest.

I have seen a Ninja dude with an 18th Dan in a documentary once.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have seen a Ninja dude with an 18th Dan in a documentary once.

Interesting. I didn't think Ninjutsu even had ranks, although some of the American schools that advertise Ninjutsu have incorporated ranks into the system.

 

[Hyoho]

In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

E

In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.

Even in Japan, it varies a bit by system (or has varied, anyway). Shodan was always the first advanced rank in NGA, even in Hokkaido.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.

From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal.

Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal.

Most of us are not in Japan.
Just in case you didn't know.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Most of us are not in Japan.
Just in case you didn't know.

Perhaps not but that's not to say that there aren't instructors from Japan who move to the USA and set up schools in the USA. Lots of people teaching in the USA are from Japan including my first instructor.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Perhaps not but that's not to say that there aren't instructors from Japan who move to the USA and set up schools in the USA. Lots of people teaching in the USA are from Japan including my first instructor.

Who then decided what shodan would mean within their system. Just as they do in every system. I'd be willing to bet that the meaning of shodan varies as widely among schools/systems in Japan as it does schools/systems in the USA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal.

Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.

Blanket statements will rarely be as accurate as they sound.

As I said in another post, there has always been a significant difference between brown and black in NGA, even dating back to the original dojo in Hokkaido. Testing has always been significantly more rigorous, expectation has always been a lot higher, and there has always been some ceremony around that particular promotion (moreso, even, than other dan ranks).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who then decided what shodan would mean within their system. Just as they do in every system. I'd be willing to bet that the meaning of shodan varies as widely among schools/systems in Japan as it does schools/systems in the USA.

I'd also question why it even matters what it means in Japan, unless we're talking about within an association, making a comparison between countries. Japan has a different culture, so unless we are trying to maintain consistency within a particular association, there's no reason why we need the belts systems to be the same between countries. We should be focused on doing what works best for the students and the school, and that doesn't always come from Japan just because the art did.

 

[Hyoho]

Most of us are not in Japan.
Just in case you didn't know.

Yes I know but it's still a Japanese system of denoting what level you have reached that has been bastardized by other countries and forms of M.A. Why make it something it's not? Rokudan usually denotes a national level. Sandan is high school graduation level.

When I taught M.A in the West as adult education the college required some sort of qualification. But that was provided by coach award showing I could teach not dan-i (having dan)

Many foreigners go to Japan short term and come away with a 'take away grade' but living there is a different story.

Work hard enough it's not so difficult taking grades living in Japan either if you practice every day. I gave up with an accumulated 27 shodan shinsa by the time I was 42 to devote myself to Koryu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I know but it's still a Japanese system of denoting what level you have reached that has been bastardized by other countries and forms of M.A. Why make it something it's not? Rokudan usually denotes a national level. Sandan is high school graduation level.

When I taught M.A in the West as adult education the college required some sort of qualification. But that was provided by coach award showing I could teach not dan-i (having dan)

Many foreigners go to Japan short term and come away with a 'take away grade' but living there is a different story.

Work hard enough it's not so difficult taking grades living in Japan either if you practice every day. I gave up with an accumulated 27 shodan shinsa by the time I was 42 to devote myself to Koryu.

By "bastardized" you mean "used a way I don't like". In every case, it only means what a group agrees it means.

 

[Hyoho]

Probably means the most to those who have the highest and set the new rules. But in actual fact its not about that at all. It's a mark of progression with added responsibility.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Blanket statements will rarely be as accurate as they sound.

As I said in another post, there has always been a significant difference between brown and black in NGA, even dating back to the original dojo in Hokkaido. Testing has always been significantly more rigorous, expectation has always been a lot higher, and there has always been some ceremony around that particular promotion (moreso, even, than other dan ranks).

If you mean that "serious beginner" is a blanket statement than I might see where you're coming from.

So with the kind of difference that you describe between brown and black in NGA than maybe there should be belts in between brown and black. It doesn't really make sense to have going from brown to black to be like going from white directly to black. That's an exaggeration of course.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'd also question why it even matters what it means in Japan, unless we're talking about within an association, making a comparison between countries. Japan has a different culture, so unless we are trying to maintain consistency within a particular association, there's no reason why we need the belts systems to be the same between countries. We should be focused on doing what works best for the students and the school, and that doesn't always come from Japan just because the art did.

Well because as I mentioned before there are instructors from Japan who move and set up schools in the USA. Being from Japan I would think they would do things the way they're done in the culture that they're originally from and that they grew up in.