BJJ Teacher Roy Dean on Aikido....

[Hanzou]

An 86 second YouTube video, that proves everything right?

Within that video, yeah it does.

Really? And you were there to see that there were no further tussles,

There were clearly no more tussles.

spoke to the subjects of the video,

Why would I need to do that?

saw other videos undeniably taken just after that video showing unequivocally that they were completely done,

If you have some more Aikidoka vs wrestler/grappler videos please post them. I would be very interested in seeing them. As would the rest of the grappling community at large.

were privy to their discussion beforehand, have transcripts of exactly what was just said by each person involved or anything like that?

None of which I need to deduct a logical conclusion from the evidence at hand.

Again you cherry pick what suits you and dismiss what doesn't.

Again, if you have more footage of Aikidoka going against grapplers please post it. Every Aikido vs grappler vid I've seen ends pretty much the same way.

At this point it sounds like you're making excuses for Aikido. How unfortunate.

 

[lklawson]

If you have some more Aikidoka vs wrestler/grappler videos please post them. I would be very interested in seeing them. As would the rest of the grappling community at large.

In general, I'm with you on this subject, but on this particular point, no, not even close.

I've seen this argument more times than I can count and here's what I've found. On the (what seems to be to me comparatively rare) occasions that an Aikidoka seems to do well, it is either dismissed as "anecdotal," "luck," or reasoned that the Aikidoka had a foundation in grappling from some other art. As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years. If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.

While it is true that I believe I have seen many Aikidoka who have not been training in what I believe is a sufficient manner, or exhibited what I believe is a sufficient skill in "fighting," it is also my experience that "the rest of the grappling community at large" has basically already decided what they want to believe and is now wading hip deep in a sea of Confirmation Bias.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

In general, I'm with you on this subject, but on this particular point, no, not even close.

I've seen this argument more times than I can count and here's what I've found. On the (what seems to be to me comparatively rare) occasions that an Aikidoka seems to do well, it is either dismissed as "anecdotal," "luck," or reasoned that the Aikidoka had a foundation in grappling from some other art. As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years. If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.

While it is true that I believe I have seen many Aikidoka who have not been training in what I believe is a sufficient manner, or exhibited what I believe is a sufficient skill in "fighting," it is also my experience that "the rest of the grappling community at large" has basically already decided what they want to believe and is now wading hip deep in a sea of Confirmation Bias.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Well what I'm saying is that if we (grapplers) had some objective evidence of someone using pure Aikido to stop grappling takedowns, it would change the way people grapple and help evolve grappling further.

The problem is that EVERY time we see an Aikidoka do "well" they're doing stuff that looks little different than what you'd see in Judo, Bjj, or Wrestling. Then you take a look into their backgrounds and you figure out that the ARE Judo, Bjj, or Wrestling practitioners, and only apply Aikido for finishing moves. No disrespect to Roy Dean, but he's pretty notorious for doing that. Don't get me wrong, he's a phenomenal instructor and a great martial artist, but i see little in his style that wouldn't be present if he just did Bjj.

Just saying, I think people (especially grapplers) would be THRILLED to see some footage of an Aikidoka wrecking a few wrestlers or judo guys around. If those old tales of the Aikido masters are true, that should be no problem right? Unfortunately, a lot of what I see (and experienced) out of Aikido can be a bit shaky in terms of authenticity and realism.

 

[Spinedoc]

Well we certainly have this little gem;

So we definitely know that that happened.



If you can't stop a takedown in a dojo, you're probably not going to stop a takedown in the streets either.

Dude, the Turkish wrestler video WAS NOT A CHALLENGE. The students there have even indicated as much. I know its presented that way on YouTube….the arbiter of truth. LOL. The Turkish wrestler was there to demonstrate techniques, which is why the Aikido yudansha did not resist at all. It's ALSO why the students clapped. They appreciated the demo and were showing their respect. Would the Aikido guy have beaten, I have no idea, but he wasn't trying to fight him…..

 

[Skullpunch]

As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years. If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.

Actually, I think the argument here would be (or at least is increasingly becoming) that he did well by being a well rounded grappler, and it makes perfect sense that a well rounded grappler may very well do better than a one-dimensional one, and in the grappling community I think most (or at least an increasing number) would be perfectly fine with stating that aikido contributed to that. The main thing that would be up for debate is to what degree, and if we want to make this about style vs. style then which of those arts he coudl have most done without would also enter the fray.

It's like how if Holly Holm vs. Ronda Rousey had happened 10 years ago everyone and their mom would be calling it boxing >>>>> judo but today a lot more people know that it was really more a case of the more well rounded fighter beating the less well rounded fighter.

 

[Hanzou]

Dude, the Turkish wrestler video WAS NOT A CHALLENGE. The students there have even indicated as much. I know its presented that way on YouTube….the arbiter of truth. LOL. The Turkish wrestler was there to demonstrate techniques, which is why the Aikido yudansha did not resist at all. It's ALSO why the students clapped. They appreciated the demo and were showing their respect. Would the Aikido guy have beaten, I have no idea, but he wasn't trying to fight him…..

Actually he did resist. You definitely saw it during the second attempt because he resisted the first takedown in their second go-around, but wasn't able to resist the second takedown which ended up with him in an arm bar.

When one of our Shotokan black belts got beat down by a visiting kick boxer, we clapped as well. Students clapping when one of their own gets schooled isn't an uncommon occurance.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually he did resist. You definitely saw it during the second attempt because he resisted the first takedown in their second go-around, but wasn't able to resist the second takedown which ended up with him in an arm bar.

When one of our Shotokan black belts got beat down by a visiting kick boxer, we clapped as well. Students clapping when one of their own gets schooled isn't an uncommon occurance.

Anyone who thinks that Turkish wrestling video was a challenge is an idiot.

Hanzou, you talk a lot of talk. But episodes like this show that you are all talk. You know nothing. If you can't see that this was not a challenge fight, well, you are less than an utter novice.

 

[Hanzou]

Anyone who thinks that Turkish wrestling video was a challenge is an idiot.

Hanzou, you talk a lot of talk. But episodes like this show that you are all talk. You know nothing. If you can't see that this was not a challenge fight, well, you are less than a complete novice.

You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.

Instead of making excuses for the Aikidoka getting beaten, maybe we could discuss why a 4th dan in Aikido got beaten so easily by a mediocre grappler?

Does Aikido have no viable takedown defenses?

Hmmmm......

 

[ballen0351]

You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.

Instead of making excuses for the Aikidoka getting beaten, maybe we could discuss why a 4th dan in Aikido got beaten so easily by a mediocre grappler?

Does Aikido have no viable takedown defenses?

Hmmmm......

Like I said all you care about is style bashing. Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......

 

[Hanzou]

Like I said all you care about is style bashing. Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......

How is posting a video of an Aikido instructor performing Aikido "style bashing"?

 

[ballen0351]

How is posting a video of an Aikido instructor performing Aikido "style bashing"?

Ur entire existence here since Sept of 2013 has been nothing but Style bashing. You want to learn how Aikido defends takedown go take a class. Other then that go troll Somewhere else

 

[Hanzou]

Ur entire existence here since Sept of 2013 has been nothing but Style bashing. You want to learn how Aikido defends takedown go take a class.

If no such techniques exists, wouldn't that be a waste of time?

Wouldn't it be easier if you just told me what those techniques were?

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Administrator

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. You look at the stories of these guys who founded these styles and they are generally weapons in their own right. Grown up hard fought people sparred people, done combat sports. They are generally athletic.

Morihei Ueshiba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you can reasonably believe they beat people up.

 

[ballen0351]

If no such techniques exists, wouldn't that be a waste of time?

Wouldn't it be easier if you just told me what those techniques were?

Nope you do your own work

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And so what was that? Well, a lot of it is technological superiority. I’m not saying the techniques of Aikido are superior to those of Judo. I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.

So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.

I don't think Hanzou is bashing Aikido but I do think the OP is bashing Judo instead.

 

[Steve]

Like I said all you care about is style bashing. Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......

Knock it off, hanzou.

Actually, like I've said many times before, I'm sure that aikido trained In a realistic manner, is very effective. The advantage bjj has over aikido is the competitive element which grounds and calibrates he training. Where aikido introduces this, we see great results.

 

[Hanzou]

Found another video of K. Tohei performing Aikido against a larger opponent from the 1950s.

Doesn't appear to be a demonstration.

Very interesting.......

 

[ballen0351]

Knock it off, hanzou.

Actually, like I've said many times before, I'm sure that aikido trained In a realistic manner, is very effective. The advantage bjj has over aikido is the competitive element which grounds and calibrates he training. Where aikido introduces this, we see great results.

competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido

 

[Steve]

competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido

I wouldn't know about that. I just know that the branches of aikido that incorporate competition seem to be more effective. Whether it's aikijitsu or cherry picking techniques and teaching them to cops or whatever.