Bird Flu

[Makalakumu]

Given the choice, if I had to worry about terrorists or germs, I would pick germs hands down. I have a good friend who happens to have a phd in public health. He says that bird flu or no bird flu, the US is not capable of responding to ANY health crisis. In a way, then, this "scare tactic" if it can be called such, is a breath of fresh air into something that really is important.

I am absolutely no fan of the Bush Administration's policies, however, if the presidents focus on this somehow makes the US more capable when dealing with germs, I'm not going to look this gift horse in the mouth.

Or we can politicize this and make sure absolutely nothing gets done...

upnorthkyosa

ps - Mike, ya got some good points, but I'm siding with what I think is the greater good this time.

 

[7starmantis]

"In the 18th century there was no such thing! Nobody'd ever imagined such a thing -- no sane person anyway. Along comes this doctor...Semmelweiss, I think. He tries to convince people... other doctors mostly...that there are these teeny tiny invisible "bad things" called germs that get into your body and make you...sick! He's trying to get doctors to wash their hands. What is this guy...crazy? Teeny tiny invisible whaddayou call 'em?...uh, uh...."germs"!

 

[michaeledward]

Xequat, my original argument was not that Bush is an idiot. I don't often employ ad hominems, if they can be avoided.

My original argument is that Bush is 'hyping' the potential of a pandemic flu outbreak to create a new thing to be afraid of.

What action are you inferring the President took that somehow reduced the impact of SARS? I don't know what actions he took, and what effect it had on SARS. But perhaps SARS is a good comparison. You see, SARS really crept up from out of nowhere. It spread fairly rapidly to two continents. The medical organizations around the world took action, and minimized loss of life and aftermath. And since then, where has SARS gone? <shrugg> Could it come back? Are we adequately prepared? Don't know.

upnorth, please don't assume that I am thinking that H5N1 is something that we shouldn't be preparing for and studying. My argument is that this does not rise to the level or Presidential attention. Sure the CDC & HHS should have the money they need to do the job, but that should be a normal course-of-government thing. I too am much more afraid of germs and viruses than terrorists. Germs and viruses are a much bigger threat.

A president with approval ratings at 35%, leading a country in which 67% of the population think the country is headed in the wrong direction needs something to rally support ... or at least demand subservience. Tom Ridge and Michael Chertoff have pushed the 'Orange Alert' too many times for that to be credible (Did you see Aaron Brown's Nexis of Terrorism & Politics report?).

H5N1 could be a real problem; tomorrow, next year, or never.

A major concern of mine is that while the government is focusing on H5N1, a different item (such as SARS or HIV) arises from a different angle, and as a nation we are flat-footed because Bird Flu has sucked all the energy out of good health care policy.

 

[michaeledward]

Found a new item for the 'factual evidence' of the Bush adminstration.

Larry Wilkerson, assistance to the Secretary of State Colin Powell related this item on NPR yesterday. The CIA would not comment or refute Mr. Wilkerson's claim.

A CIA analyst reported to Director Tenet that Iraq was attempting to acquire software to pilot UAV's (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) from a company in Austrailia.

Director Tenet brought this intelligence to the attention of Vice President Cheney (we all heard the stories).

The CIA analyst later learned that Iraq was trying to purchase a different product from the Austrailian company that manufactures the UAV software. In the course of the negotiations on the other product, the Austrailian company solicited Iraq to purchase the UAV software. The transaction never went through.

The analyst provided updated information for Director Tenent.

Director Tenet did not inform the Vice President of the corrected intelligence information.

I never heard or read the retraction from the Administration.

Oops!

 

[7starmantis]

Xequat, my original argument was not that Bush is an idiot. I don't often employ ad hominems, if they can be avoided.

My original argument is that Bush is 'hyping' the potential of a pandemic flu outbreak to create a new thing to be afraid of.

"Every American vaccinated against Every Virus" What an idiot.

:idunno:

On the subject of "hyping" your not willing to look at anything other than your own view of it. Your providing your own reason for his (Bush's) addressing of this issue. We can't put our belief of why someone does something as fact without some serious evidence. The issue of him "hyping" this seems moot since it seems he must have "hyped" many other countries and agencies as well. This issue is serious and needs serious attention, to criticize the administration for its "hyping" of this issue and in the same breath also criticize the administration for "classifying information" is contradictory.

upnorth, please don't assume that I am thinking that H5N1 is something that we shouldn't be preparing for and studying. My argument is that this does not rise to the level or Presidential attention. Sure the CDC & HHS should have the money they need to do the job, but that should be a normal course-of-government thing. I too am much more afraid of germs and viruses than terrorists. Germs and viruses are a much bigger threat.

A major concern of mine is that while the government is focusing on H5N1, a different item (such as SARS or HIV) arises from a different angle, and as a nation we are flat-footed because Bird Flu has sucked all the energy out of good health care policy.

However you havent offered a base of why this is should not rise to the level of presidential attention. What is wrong with the president being concerned with this issue? Your assuming that because he addresses this issue than he is ignoring other issues. Seriously, that is pretty far fetched. what has or is rising from a different angle? You seriously believe that because action is being undertaken for this issue that another issue will be completely ignored? How exactly has bird flu sucked all the energy out of good health care policy?

I understand your concern, but it seems you are concerned without cause. What is your base for believing these theories and supositions that we will be unprepared because of current action?

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

On the subject of "hyping" your not willing to look at anything other than your own view of it. Your providing your own reason for his (Bush's) addressing of this issue. We can't put our belief of why someone does something as fact without some serious evidence. The issue of him "hyping" this seems moot since it seems he must have "hyped" many other countries and agencies as well.

7starmantis ... this is getting a bit old.

You said in the paragraph above "we can't put our belief of why someone does something as fact without some serious evidence". Now, I've put your word in bold font twice. Pay attention now.

You are asking for evidence for my claim the that the President is 'hyping' the material. I will list the evidence I have presented numerically here, so you can be sure what evidence I am putting forward.

1. Iraq sought to purchase yellowcake uranium ore from Niger.

2. Aluminum tubes purchased by Iraq can only be used for Nuclear Centerfuges.

3. al Qaeda had plans to bomb major banks in New Jersey.

4. A terrorist threat on the tunnels in Baltimore Harbor

5. Iraq's plans to acquire UAV software.

That's 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 instances of 'hyped' intelligence. Only reason number 5 has any questions surrounding it (it just surfaced yesterday). Please, dispute any of these 'facts'.

My claim that the H5N1 virus, and the Presidents understanding of this virus fits a pattern displayed in the above factual reports.

And, one more time ... just in case someone decides to actually read what I post. The H5N1 virus is a serious health issue that does need to be watched closely, and planned for ... but ... it does not rise to the level of the President of the United States. Yes, CDC, HHS and the WHO should be working on plans and policies to prepare for a pandemic caused by H5N1 or any other virus (cuz we will get hit from somewhere unexpected).

The behavior of the President is that of an untreated alcoholic. He is focused on, and obsessed by something over which he has no power or control, while items within his circle of control are falling apart.

That I think President Bush is a criminal, should be impeached, thrown out of office and into jail, on top of being an idiot has nothing whatsoever to do with these claims.

 

[Don Roley]

You are asking for evidence for my claim the that the President is 'hyping' the material. I will list the evidence I have presented numerically here, so you can be sure what evidence I am putting forward.

And then you listed five things that you can't prove that the president hyped. Can you prove that the president knew these things were not true? Oh yeah, maybe in hindsight we know that they were more of a concern that they were. But can you prove duplicity and fraud?

And getting back to the subject of bird flu, can you prove that there is no threat to the nation?

This just in....

The World Health Orginization (an obvious Bush stooge) has said that an outbreak of bird flu that can be transmited from human to human could kill
at least three million people in Southeast Asia alone.

Are you saying that something that deadly is either,

A) a fraud dreamed up by a conspiracy to make the president look good

or

B) not worthy of the President's attention- after all 3 million in Asia alone is not that much to worry about.

If you would only put aside you hatred and desire to bash the president, you may understand why even democrats such as Ed Kennedy are screaming about the dangers of bird flu. But if you are so eager to damage Bush that you would ignore the obvious dangers, then you are potentially leading to the deaths of millions of Americans. It is sad that someone would be willing to risk all those deaths merely in his effort to score politacal points.

 

[michaeledward]

And then you listed five things that you can't prove that the president hyped. Can you prove that the president knew these things were not true?

Oh, Dear God ! ! !

1 - Are you ****ing kidding me? Can't prove the president hyped? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=446434&postcount=346

2 - If by 'not true' you mean lie ... I never claimed that hype and lie are synonyms.

If you wish, I will be more than happy to discuss the many, many things the President has told us that were not true.

 

[Don Roley]

If you wish, I will be more than happy to discuss the many, many things the President has told us that were not true.

Great! Let us start with this idea that you are trying to spread that bird flu is a myth and that it is not a threat to millions of people and thus not worthy of the presidents attention.

Accusations are not proof. You have been battered by this point before. Show the proof. And then show how this threat is not credible.

Again, WHO, the CDC, Romania, China, Japan and many other countries are making vast efforts to combat this threat. So prove that all of them are part of the conspiracy to make Bush look good.

I am glad that the president is making this effort. The things he is pushing may not be needed for this threat. But hearing that he is pushing to prevent drug companies from being sued for rushing untested vacines in an emergency does my heart good. For things like cancer and standard things, drug companies have to go through a process that takes years. That is ok for most cases. But when there is something that is killing as many people as this thing may, they may have to rush vacines to market that do not go through all those prececures. If they stand to be sued as easily and as frivoulously as some American trial lawyers (now calling themselves things like 'consumer rights advocates') have, they either look at being put out of business or letting millions of Americans die.

Even if bird flu was not the very legitimate threat that organizations such as WHO has stated, then just letting drug companies rush vacines to the populace when the goverment has determined that there is an epidemic is a damn good thing IMO.

Put aside you hate and your urge to bash the president aside for a awhile and you can see how the message you send can possibly kill millions just to further your crusade. Any responable person would put aside that hate and stand with the president. Ed Kennedy thinks this is a threat and you can't call him a friend of Bush. So by pushing the crazy conspiracy theory that you do at the threat of killing millions or people, you only marginalize yourself and all those that share your cause of anti-Bush uber alles.

 

[michaeledward]

Great! Let us start with this idea that you are trying to spread that bird flu is a myth and that it is not a threat to millions of people and thus not worthy of the presidents attention.

Donnie .... Yoo-hoo Donnie ...

I never made a statement, claim, on insinuation that the bird flu (or any other virus or germ) is not a threat.

Once again, I said it is not a threat worthy of the attention of the President. The threat should be monitored, and planned for by the appropriate government agencies; the Centers for Disease Control, and Health and Human Services (and there are probably other governement agencies that should be involved).

Fortunately, all of my claims are back there in the thread, so you can go back and re-read them, if you need to remember what I actually said.

Accusations are not proof. You have been battered by this point before. Show the proof. And then show how this threat is not credible.

Donnie, I really don't think I have been 'battered' at all.

And as for proof ... there are 2,045 families that are not going to have children return from Iraq, because the President hyped (or lied about) the quality of intelligence concerning purchase of yellowcake uranium ore from Niger, or how the aluminum tubes can only be used for centerfuges.

Are the deaths of those soldiers not credible?

Put aside you hate and your urge to bash the president aside for a awhile and you can see how the message you send can possibly kill millions just to further your crusade. Any responable person would put aside that hate and stand with the president. Ed Kennedy thinks this is a threat and you can't call him a friend of Bush. So by pushing the crazy conspiracy theory that you do at the threat of killing millions or people, you only marginalize yourself and all those that share your cause of anti-Bush uber alles.

And Donnie, .... this, well, this is what the call an 'ad hominem' attack .... The whole paragraph attacks 'to the man', rather than to the argument.

Now, if by 'hate' and 'urge to bash', you mean that I 'oppose' the President, you would indeed be accurate.

But, I really don't think that my words, or the message I send could, in any way 'kill millions' ... I mean, they are just words after all. At best, and my hope is, my words will cause people to actually think about what they see going on around them.

And, gee Donnie.... the United States, what some call a 'Christian Nation' is currently at war with Iraq, a country with a majority of Muslem people. Do you think you could be a bit more careful about throwing around the word 'crusade'. I mean really, it is a word that has some really bad connotations, especially when people are dying.

I wonder why people think that just by mentioning the name 'Kennedy', it tars the whole argument. The Senator has served his country for more than 40 years in the Senate. Donnie, you enlisted, right, you know what service is about. I would think that his service would earn a minimum of respect. But, leaving that aside ...

Senator Kennedy sits on the Senate Committee for Health, Education, Labor and Pensions. Because of this, and because the Congress and not the President allocate Federal Funds, I would hope that Senator Kennedy is aware enough of the potential threats of bird flu to appropriately fund the correct government agencies; the Centers for Disease Control and Health and Human Services.

 

[7starmantis]

Great couple of posts, Don. What Michaeledward is doing is fairly common. See with hindsight we can see that some of these things were not as big as we thought, we can see that there was some mistakes made in the intellegence gathering process and now, Michaeledward is trying to implant some kind of intent behind these things. That is what is so unprovable. The facts that you (michaeledward) present aren't false in actuality, just false in the intent you paint them with. The world is not a perfect place and there will be mistakes made both by politicians and those who are in the field gathering information and handling orders. To hold one person responsible for all of these and try to implant some devioius intent behind it, is just absurd, regardless of who we are trying to pin it on.

You are asking for evidence for my claim the that the President is 'hyping' the material. I will list the evidence I have presented numerically here, so you can be sure what evidence I am putting forward.

This is evidence of many things, none of which are "hyping". To show proof of hyping you must prove intent....that my friend is something you have failed to do. No need to get mean, we are simply discussing. I'm simply calling you on your implications of intent by the president, your "proof" shows nothing of intent.

Once again, I said it is not a threat worthy of the attention of the President. The threat should be monitored, and planned for by the appropriate government agencies; the Centers for Disease Control, and Health and Human Services (and there are probably other governement agencies that should be involved).

Since it seems you have ignored this over the course of the thread, allow me to offer it again. Why is it you feel yourself as qualified to make the decision on what the President of the United States spends time on? Obviously you dont think that because leaders of many other countries have taken notice and started action, that this rises it to Bush's attention. What would? Oh, I guess when it becomes a pandemic and (according to WHO) "No one will have immunity should an H5N1-like pandemic virus emerge". This means that once it becomes transmitable between humans the sudden surge of deaths will be huge. Once this starts its too late....so I guess then its ok for it to be brought to the attention of the president? Once its too late for him to do anything. Wait a second, I see a pattern here.....
Katrina = "shame on this poopy president for not doing something sooner"......
Bird Flu = "shame on this poopy president for wanting to do something sooner".
:idunno:

How can you explain the point at which these things should be brought to the attention of the president? It either has to be before it happens or never. Your point doesn't make sense! Of course the president should spend time on it.....why should you be aware of it and not him? You assuming again (great stretch here) that because it is brought ot his attention it takes away from other things.....thats a huge jump to make, and one I have seen nothing yet to prove.

And Donnie, .... this, well, this is what the call an 'ad hominem' attack .... The whole paragraph attacks 'to the man', rather than to the argument.

Yes we would never stoop to that would we!!

That I think President Bush is a criminal, should be impeached, thrown out of office and into jail, on top of being an idiot has nothing whatsoever to do with these claims.

"Every American vaccinated against Every Virus" What an idiot.

....well at least not directly!

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

7starmantis ... I'll explain

Katrina = "shame on this poopy president for not doing something sooner"......
Bird Flu = "shame on this poopy president for wanting to do something sooner".

The Federal Emergency Management Agency had a plan (on paper at least) on what it is supposed to do in the event of a natural disaster ... any generic natural disaster. Fortunately, one of the most predictable natural disasters was a Hurricane hitting New Orleans.

You see.... the President was not involved in the day-to-day grind of FEMA's plan, nor should he have been.

What happened with Katrina is the plan was not executed, because FEMA director Michael 'You're doin' a heck of a job, Brownie' Brown was more worried about getting his dinner reservations in and whether he should wear a tie or not.

The point is FEMA planned and did not execute. President should hold that incompetence accountable.

Concerning the Bird Flu, the President should keep his hands out of the soup. Let the Centers for Disease Control & Health and Human Services plan for what may, or may not happen. They are the appropriate government agencies at this time.


* * * * * * * * * * * *
One last thought ....

I feel qualified to have an opinion on what the President focuses on because I am a citizen and I am a voter.

 

[Don Roley]

Concerning the Bird Flu, the President should keep his hands out of the soup. Let the Centers for Disease Control & Health and Human Services plan for what may, or may not happen. They are the appropriate government agencies at this time.

You seem to be saying that the president it involved in day to day micromanagement of the situation. That is not the case. He is proposing increased funding for vacine programs and reducing legal hurdles for drug companies. The CDC, etc, can't do that on their own. So how are you seriously expecting them to make the legislalative decisions that only he can make?

Honesetly, you want the president to not take action over a threat that could kill millions of Americans and yet take him to task for not doing enough when Katrina hit? How should he get less involved now and yet be guilty for letting the city and state goverements, as well as the federal system, do their job without interferance?

The president is supposed to lead the federal agencies and plan policy. That is what he is doing now. He is not supposed to let the aagencies choose what they are supposed to do. He has to let them do things on a day to day basis, but not for things like this. If we were in the midst of an epidemic and he tried to miromanage, he would be wrong. But to see a problem that WHO, etc are saying is a major threat to American lives, how on earth can you expect him to not propose things like easier ways to get vacines to the public in a hurry?

Oh, and I will not call you a derisive nickname such as "mikey" in retalitation for your trying to get my goat with your using "donnie." I think it a cheap shot by someone unable to debate without such tactics and will not stoop to your level. But I am going to point out how you need to use it instead of facts and logic. If you want to use facts and logic, I will be pleased to debate you on it. But it seems you can't. Such a shame.

 

[Rich Parsons]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Admin

 

[michaeledward]

You seem to be saying that the president it involved in day to day micromanagement of the situation. That is not the case. He is proposing increased funding for vacine programs and reducing legal hurdles for drug companies. The CDC, etc, can't do that on their own. So how are you seriously expecting them to make the legislalative decisions that only he can make?

Don Roley, the President does not make legislative decisions.

Honesetly, you want the president to not take action over a threat that could kill millions of Americans and yet take him to task for not doing enough when Katrina hit? How should he get less involved now and yet be guilty for letting the city and state goverements, as well as the federal system, do their job without interferance?

I take the President to task for not holding accountable the Federal Agencies involved in the poorly executed response to Hurricane Katrina.

The president is supposed to lead the federal agencies and plan policy. That is what he is doing now. He is not supposed to let the aagencies choose what they are supposed to do. He has to let them do things on a day to day basis, but not for things like this. If we were in the midst of an epidemic and he tried to miromanage, he would be wrong. But to see a problem that WHO, etc are saying is a major threat to American lives, how on earth can you expect him to not propose things like easier ways to get vacines to the public in a hurry?

The first few sentences of this paragraph are accurate.

I am contesting that the Presidents leadership concerning bird flu, and H5N1 specifically, is micromanaging at too great a level. I am proposing the current use of the Presidential 'Bully Pulpit' is to create fear, to keep the populace submissive.

Again, see the excellent report 'The Nexis of Terrorism and Politics'.

Oh, and I will not call you a derisive nickname such as "mikey" in retalitation for your trying to get my goat with your using "donnie." I think it a cheap shot by someone unable to debate without such tactics and will not stoop to your level. But I am going to point out how you need to use it instead of facts and logic. If you want to use facts and logic, I will be pleased to debate you on it. But it seems you can't. Such a shame.

There are several points on this paragraph.

re: Name Calling

• You insinuate I am not a 'responsible person'
• You claim I am a 'threat to millions'.
• You claim I am 'rabid'.
• You accuse me of having 'filters of hate'.

re: facts and logic

You are not debating, you are attempting to frame the arugment. You are trying to make this discussion about me, and how I am; irresponsible - threat to milliions - because of my - rabid - filters of hate.

You call for facts of hype or hyperbole. But when I list them, they go unaddressed, except to say "you can't prove ill will'. Well, maybe I shouldn't have to prove ill will. Maybe we should all be able to see the ill results of the policies I have listed.

Further, if the President was persuing these claims with the best intentions, he should be held accountable for the incompetence of his judgements. If George Tenet was so demonstrably wrong on yellowcake, and aluminum tubes, why was he given the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
​

So, here's a review,


Facts Presented by michaeledward.

Iraq attempted to purchase yellowcake ore from Niger.
Aluminum tubes imported to Iraq can only be used for centerfuges.
Iraq attempted to purchase UAV software from Austrailia.
2049 United States service members have died in Iraq.
Donald Rumsfeld stands to profit greatly from increased demand for Tamiflu.
Jeff Gannon was a gay prostitute given White House Press credentials.
Edward Kennedy has served in the Senate for over 40 years.

​

Facts disputed or refuted by Don Roley and 7starmantis.

****


​

 

[7starmantis]

OK guys, let’s all take a deep breath and relax......... Now, isn't that better? Ok, to continue lets see...

Concerning the Bird Flu, the President should keep his hands out of the soup. Let the Centers for Disease Control & Health and Human Services plan for what may, or may not happen. They are the appropriate government agencies at this time.

I don’t see how the president is putting his hands in the soup. You’re correct; they are the appropriate agencies and are doing their job. The only thing the president has even moved towards is giving them more ability to do said job. He is not getting involved in "the soup" or daily operations of any of these agencies. Your trying to make much more out of this than it really is....you know the old adage: Mountain out of a mole hill? That’s whats going on here. There is no verifiable proof or evidence that the president has done anything more than offer up increased funding for these agencies to do a job that needs doing. Take everything else away from this and you will see, look at this one incident......he's not interfering like you implicate.

I am contesting that the Presidents leadership concerning bird flu, and H5N1 specifically, is micromanaging at too great a level. I am proposing the current use of the Presidential 'Bully Pulpit' is to create fear, to keep the populace submissive.

Ok, I understand this, but your not doing a very good job of providing requested evidence of such. How exactly is proposing increased funding in any way micromanaging? You want to nail him so bad for something that you are reaching too far. What exactly has he done that could be considered micromanaging?

Also, the use of his "bully pulpit" to create fear and submission from the populace is not only unfounded and unsupported, but reeks of conspiracy theorists. Is he creating fear in you? He's not creating fear in me. Maybe you should poll several million people to see if indeed he is creating fear before you start making wild claims like this. Then you need to provide proof of intent. Something I have been asking you about all thread and something you have been ignoring all thread. Proof of intent is needed to make your claims even close to verifiable. As of yet, you have failed to offer any facts or proof of intent by the president or any members of this current administration to create fear for the sole purpose of making you submissive. Next we must look at what we are being kept submissive to. What is it that he needs to use fear to make us submit to? These are claims that are riddled with personal bias to a point that they dont hold much water at all.

Facts Presented by michaeledward.
Iraq attempted to purchase yellowcake ore from Niger.
Aluminum tubes imported to Iraq can only be used for centerfuges.
Iraq attempted to purchase UAV software from Austrailia.
2049 United States service members have died in Iraq.
Donald Rumsfeld stands to profit greatly from increased demand for Tamiflu.
Jeff Gannon was a gay prostitute given White House Press credentials.
Edward Kennedy has served in the Senate for over 40 years.

First, lets not make this a personal agenda here. These "facts" prove nothing about intent or maliciousness. Where is that proof? Oh, and while we are on the subject of these "facts" lets narrow down your list. The number of service men and women who have died in Iraq, while terrible has nothing to do with this discussion, so we'll remove that one. Donald Rumsfel stand to profit nothing currently form an increase for tamiflu which is only one drug among many that could be used against bird flu. Jeff Gannon's service or lifestyle has nothing to do with this discussion either, as does Kennedy's service in the senate. So now we are left with:

Iraq attempted to purchase yellowcake ore from Niger.
Aluminum tubes imported to Iraq can only be used for centerfuges.
Iraq attempted to purchase UAV software from Austrailia.

What exactly do these prove? Lets keep all of them....what does that prove? You must show intent if you want to verify your claims of malicious creation of fear to keep us submissive. So far, that is completely lacking.

7sm

 

[Cryozombie]

Found a new item for the 'factual evidence' of the Bush adminstration.

Larry Wilkerson, assistance to the Secretary of State Colin Powell related this item on NPR yesterday. The CIA would not comment or refute Mr. Wilkerson's claim.

A CIA analyst reported to Director Tenet that Iraq was attempting to acquire software to pilot UAV's (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) from a company in Austrailia.

Director Tenet brought this intelligence to the attention of Vice President Cheney (we all heard the stories).

The CIA analyst later learned that Iraq was trying to purchase a different product from the Austrailian company that manufactures the UAV software. In the course of the negotiations on the other product, the Austrailian company solicited Iraq to purchase the UAV software. The transaction never went through.

The analyst provided updated information for Director Tenent.

Director Tenet did not inform the Vice President of the corrected intelligence information.

I never heard or read the retraction from the Administration.

Oops!

I dont mean to sidetrack the thread but I just gotta say...

I hope to GOD we get a Liberal President in office next time around, because its going to be more than amusing to watch you guys backpeddle when these types of Inteligence mistakes come up in their term, and instead of condeming them you guys make excuses for why they are ok... or just honest mistakes.

:shrug:

 

[michaeledward]

• Iraq attempted to purchase yellowcake ore from Niger.
• Aluminum tubes imported to Iraq can only be used for centerfuges.
• Iraq attempted to purchase UAV software from Austrailia.

What exactly do these prove? Lets keep all of them....what does that prove? You must show intent if you want to verify your claims of malicious creation of fear to keep us submissive. So far, that is completely lacking.

Why must I show intent?

Are not results sufficent?

Claims made. Actions Taken. Claims proven false.

We are stuck providing for the Actions Taken. (In Iraq, 2000+ dead, 15000+ injured, 300 Billion Dollars, Federal Credit Card Maxed Out).

 

[Don Roley]

Why must I show intent?

Because you are not saying that these were mistakes, you are saying that these are cases of hype. Hype is a matter of intent.

And in the case of bird flu, this is not hype. Again, take a look at the way foreign goverments are dealing with this. They can't all be part of this vast, right wing conspiracy. You accuse Bush of using the bully pulpit to create fear in the populace. Hell, I was worried months before he made these announcements. And a lot of other people are worried as well.

(As an aside- have you ever seen pictures of people having to be pushed into crowded trains in Japan during rush hour? Consider the fact that you can infect other people 24 hours before you start showing signs like a runny nose or coughing and how easily the flu can be transmitted in a train like that and you can see why the Japanese goverment is scared silly about the idea of a flu that kills over half the people that get it.)

I applaud the president for taking action in the face of this threat. Even if bird flu nevers explodes like we fear, if he gets the legal protection for those rushing untested vacines during an emergency we are a bit better protected for something else coming later. The CDC, etc can't do that. But the president can propose legislation and it is good to see him do so.

 

[Tgace]

An epidemic of overreaction:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...0,1462855.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Im not really worried about the "bird flu" per se. We have ALWAYS been at risk for a pandemic. My guess is that when it eventually does happen there will be little to no warning.

What I do think we need is a general/comprehensive plan for dealing with a pandemic, which I think the President is on the right track for.

I do find it amusing though how some folks want to flog the government for being unprepared at one turn and then say that preparations are part of a conspiracy at the other.......