Bird Flu

[Tgace]

On yet another occasion I agree somewhat with Mike. I think a large part of this "Bird Flu" thing is hype.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17091275%5E1702,00.html

"At any point in time, it could be any influenza virus, not necessarily a bird flu (that hit the country), so we need pandemic planning all the time," Dr Haikerwal said.

"We need awareness. We need response planning, especially getting GPs into the front line.

"We need responsible discussion about antiviral medication and possible immunisation."

He said the message should focus on simple procedures such as hand washing and not going to work when feeling unwell.

http://www.the-health-gazette.com/h...ve-medicine/bird-flu-hype-harmful-not-helpful

I have already suggested that the near hysteria concerning "bird flu" results from media hype. I have also suggested that the hype is being well fed by people who seek to gain politically and financially from it. I should add that various people are also seeking some personal recognition by making statements to the media. Indeed, some of the people to have come out of the bureaucratic woodwork to comment add absolutely nothing new and merely seem to want to see their names in print.

It is time to put an end to this nonsense. The more extreme the hype and the longer it is allowed to flourish, the greater the harm it causes. It does this in various ways, but let's just consider three.

Firstly, it is creating a large amount of worry. People are growing more concerned as time goes by. Worry does not help at all. These negative feelings and their associated negative thoughts have a depressing effect on the immune system. Where are all the psychoneuroimmunologists when we need them? Perhaps they realize that no one wants to hear that worry is the real risk factor that can be avoided or minimized.

The sooner people can return to a sensible calm, free from the ridiculous hype, the better. The worry has its greatest impact on the very system that needs to be in best condition to ward off disease, the immune system.

 

[7starmantis]

I'm going to type this real slowly.

I am not advocating that the United States "do nothing". I am saying that this threat does not rise to the level of Presidential attention.

The President is a)allowing himself to be distracted from more important matters and b) working to cultivate fear in the populace.

C'mon now. Your assuming that first, the president is being distracted, second that more important things are being overlooked, and the reasoning behind his actions is to create fear. This is my point exactly! Lets face the facts and leave the suppositious conspiracy theories out of it. No one is saying the avian flu is deffinitely going to wipe out mankind or anything, but why is it so many people feel they are quite qualified to determine what is and is not the presidents business? Your speaking of presidential attention and saying attention should be focused by CDC and such....where do you think they get their funding?

Pissing match on.

Priority = Yes .... Memo saying "Al Qaeda determined to Strike in US"

Priority = Not So Much .... Some birds got a virus that may (or may not) jump to human's

Wrong, over 150 million birds have been destroyed because of a virus that has allready jumped to humans and has killed over half of those infected by it. What may (or may not ) happen is that it becomes transmitable from human to human. The mere fact that this could occur needs attention. The devistatingly large effects of this type of pandemic require action. Your suggesting that the president need not be concerned with a virus that meets 2 out of three conditions for a pandemic. Again, why do we feel so qualified to determine what the president should or should not know or spend time on? I'm not the type suport hype and yes there is much hype here, but hype doesn't negate true facts and possible threats. Anyone really know what happens to a human who contracts this virus?

"Unlike normal seasonal influenza, where infection causes only mild respiratory symptoms in most people, the disease caused by H5N1 follows an unusually aggressive clinical course, with rapid deterioration and high fatality. Primary viral pneumonia and multi-organ failure are common. In the present outbreak, more than half of those infected with the virus have died. Most cases have occurred in previously healthy children and young adults." (WHO)

7sm

 

[Don Roley]

I'm going to type this real slowly.

I am not advocating that the United States "do nothing". I am saying that this threat does not rise to the level of Presidential attention.

The President is a)allowing himself to be distracted from more important matters and b) working to cultivate fear in the populace.

You are still with the silly paranoid conspiracy theories, eh?

There is a chance that this thing could mutate to a form easily transmitable from human to human. Maybe it is low, but influenza does have a nasty tendancy to mutate- which is why they have new versions every year at least. This particular one kills an increadible percentage of the humans that get it. Should it mutate, millions of Americans could die. There is that chance. And you are saying that that it is not worthy of presidential attention?!?!?!?!?!?

Honestly, if you would listen to people like Jonathan Randall and put aside your desire to bash this president we might have a decent discussion. But you are sounding like those people that say AIDS was created to kill off blacks.

Have you bothered to look at the world and how it is reacting to this? Democrats such as Kennedy and Shumer are saying the president is not doing enough and you are saying that he is doing this to create fear and push for martial law??!?!??!

The health minister of Australia has hinted that if bird flu breaks out in Indonesia in force they may stop direct flights and prevent people who have visited there from entering the country and yet you say this is not a reasonable potential for presedential thought?!?!?!?

Let go of your rabid hatred for Bush and your desire to bash him for a while and try to understand why so many liberal folks are backing anything like this that may help us in the worse case scenario.

 

[michaeledward]

Alrighty then. I'm wondering if all those who heard the October 4, Press Conference of President Bush would Raise their hands. I did. Let me tell you what struck me about that conference.

Most of the questions were about Ms. Harriett Miers, who at the time was generating quite a bit of buzz. The President performed fairly well answering questions. Not great, but he was able to avoid stepping on his own tongue. (i.e. there were no obvious Bushism). Then, this question came up.

Q Mr. President, you've been thinking a lot about pandemic flu and the risks in the United States if that should occur. I was wondering, Secretary Leavitt has said that first responders in the states and local governments are not prepared for something like that. To what extent are you concerned about that after Katrina and Rita? And is that one of the reasons you're interested in the idea of using defense assets to respond to something as broad and long-lasting as a flu might be?

This reporter, and this question were obviously a plant. This question about bird flu came out of nowhere.

For those who think that only someone with 'rabid hatred' for the President could suppose such a thing, please do a search on Jeff Gannon, a former Male Prostitute that was allowed into the White House press room to lob softball questions at the President for a Right Wing Blog.

But what really was amazing .... with Harriett Miers on the front page of every paper, and insiders around Washington on pins and needles over Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald, the President gave this answer.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you for the question. I am concerned about avian flu. I am concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world. I am -- I have thought through the scenarios of what an avian flu outbreak could mean. I tried to get a better handle on what the decision-making process would be by reading Mr. Barry's book on the influenza outbreak in 1918. I would recommend it.

The policy decisions for a President in dealing with an avian flu outbreak are difficult. One example: If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country, and how do you then enforce a quarantine? When -- it's one thing to shut down airplanes; it's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine? One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move.

And so that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have. I noticed the other day, evidently, some governors didn't like it. I understand that. I was the commander-in-chief of the National Guard, and proudly so, and, frankly, I didn't want the President telling me how to be the commander-in-chief of the Texas Guard. But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the President to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe, or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak.

Secondly -- wait a minute, this is an important subject. Secondly, during my meetings at the United Nations, not only did I speak about it publicly, I spoke about it privately to as many leaders as I could find, about the need for there to be awareness, one, of the issue; and, two, reporting, rapid reporting to WHO, so that we can deal with a potential pandemic. The reporting needs to be not only on the birds that have fallen ill, but also on tracing the capacity of the virus to go from bird to person, to person. That's when it gets dangerous, when it goes bird-person-person. And we need to know on a real-time basis as quickly as possible, the facts, so that the scientific community, the world scientific community can analyze the facts and begin to deal with it.

Obviously, the best way to deal with a pandemic is to isolate it and keep it isolated in the region in which it begins. As you know, there's been a lot of reporting of different flocks that have fallen ill with the H5N1 virus. And we've also got some cases of the virus being transmitted to person, and we're watching very carefully.

Thirdly, the development of a vaccine -- I've spent time with Tony Fauci on the subject. Obviously, it would be helpful if we had a breakthrough in the capacity to develop a vaccine that would enable us to feel comfortable here at home that not only would first responders be able to be vaccinated, but as many Americans as possible, and people around the world. But, unfortunately, there is a -- we're just not that far down the manufacturing process. And there's a spray, as you know, that can maybe help arrest the spread of the disease, which is in relatively limited supply.

So one of the issues is how do we encourage the manufacturing capacity of the country, and maybe the world, to be prepared to deal with the outbreak of a pandemic. In other words, can we surge enough production to be able to help deal with the issue?

I take this issue very seriously, and I appreciate you bringing it to our attention. The people of the country ought to rest assured that we're doing everything we can: We're watching it, we're careful, we're in communications with the world. I'm not predicting an outbreak; I'm just suggesting to you that we better be thinking about it. And we are. And we're more than thinking about it; we're trying to put plans in place, and one of the plans -- back to where your original question came -- was, if we need to take some significant action, how best to do so. And I think the President ought to have all options on the table to understand what the consequences are, but -- all assets on the table -- not options -- assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant.

Now, that is a cogent, intelligent answer. Worthy of (dare I say it) Bill Clinton. George W. Bush is not a policy wonk. He doesn't read department plans until two in the morning, (with or without an intern under the desk).

I will say again, I heard this news conference live. I was very impressed by the President's performance over all (53+ minute press conference) and on this answer in specific. Despite the fact that this answer sounds like President Bush is bringing the news of H5N1 to the world community, and not following the world community, as some have suggested.

I have told others, its seems to me that the President is more versed on what is going on with aspects of H5N1 than he is with what is going on in Iraq or Who is saying What about covert agents in the White House.

 

[Don Roley]

This reporter, and this question were obviously a plant.

Oh my Gawd! The conspiracy has spread to the media! They are all in on it! There is no place to run from this conspiracy to make bird flu sound like it is dangerous instead of a minor worry!

So, we should not worry about bird flu anymore. Great! And here I was worried about the mortality rate over 50 percent. But I guess WHO is just a plant by the Bush administration to divert attention away from the war.

 

[michaeledward]

Oh my Gawd! The conspiracy has spread to the media! They are all in on it! There is no place to run from this conspiracy to make bird flu sound like it is dangerous instead of a minor worry!

So, we should not worry about bird flu anymore. Great! And here I was worried about the mortality rate over 50 percent. But I guess WHO is just a plant by the Bush administration to divert attention away from the war.

And you think I'm wearing a tinfoil hat..... <chuckle>.

I post this link, not because I expect you to read them Don, but maybe some others might.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon

 

[Don Roley]

And you think I'm wearing a tinfoil hat..... <chuckle>.

Yep. To immediatly think that someone is a plant is a bit of a stretch in any case. Some people think Gannon was a plant. Some people think the goverment blew up the dams in New Orleans to kill black people. Where is the proof? To accuse someone of that is not the same as them being guilty. Nor is it proof that there was a plant in this case.

But the idea that Bird Flu is not a worry for the world and being used to divert attention.... that is silly. Take a look at the measures other goverments are doing to deal with this matter. The US response is mild. Proposing increasing funding for some projects and making it easier for vacines to reach market is hardly the first steps of martial law as is being discussed here.

What I really fear is people like you who are so agenda driven to destroy the president that they will oppose anything he proposes. If you looked at the matter without the filters of your hate, you would see that it is a concern for the world. Need I remind you that Flu mutates pretty fast and this one kills over half the people that get it. Did you know that you can infect people with the flu 24 hours or so before you start showing any symptoms? Can you imagine what those facts lead up to in this age of jet travel?

I hope that this is just a case of the entire world worrying over something that does not come to fruit. But considering the dangers and possibilities, the measure the president has proposed is the least we should do. I would not stop international air travel at this point, but the measures such as limiting the legal liabilities of vacine makers that rush untested products to market when a epidemic hits is a damn good idea.

 

[7starmantis]

I will say again, I heard this news conference live. I was very impressed by the President's performance over all (53+ minute press conference) and on this answer in specific. Despite the fact that this answer sounds like President Bush is bringing the news of H5N1 to the world community, and not following the world community, as some have suggested.

I have told others, its seems to me that the President is more versed on what is going on with aspects of H5N1 than he is with what is going on in Iraq or Who is saying What about covert agents in the White House.

And yet you blindly follow your agenda of bashing this president. Even in the face of what you refer to as "impressive performance" it can only be so because of media spys and strange conspiracy therories. Also it seems that his positive handling or "performance" about this issue is only further proof of his mishandling of things?

Seriously, if your dislike for Bush didn't come across as an agenda your willing to follow without regard to anything else, we may have more discussion or take your points more seriously.

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

What I really fear is people like you who are so agenda driven to destroy the president that they will oppose anything he proposes. If you looked at the matter without the filters of your hate, you would see that it is a concern for the world.

Come on, Don, you are barely attacking my citizenship and patriotism there. You can do better. Come on', call me a fascist, call me a traitor.

"Some people think Gannon was a plant" ..

A Gay Prostitute sleeping in the White House. Good God man! .. Do you think the President is a Sub?

A Gay Prostitute with Press Credentials for a news service that did not exist at the time.

I bet he claimed liberals hate the President too. That seems to be sure way to get a radio program on access to the White House.

 

[michaeledward]

And yet you blindly follow your agenda of bashing this president. Even in the face of what you refer to as "impressive performance" it can only be so because of media spys and strange conspiracy therories. Also it seems that his positive handling or "performance" about this issue is only further proof of his mishandling of things?

Seriously, if your dislike for Bush didn't come across as an agenda your willing to follow without regard to anything else, we may have more discussion or take your points more seriously.

Take my point of view seriously, or don't. You're choice.

Yes, it was an impressive performance. I had never heard him speak so clearly. Of course, the bar is set kind of low, isn't it?

As to if it is media spys or conspiracy theory; can you please remove your blinders. The administration has played these games for 6 years; hand picking audience attendees so they are 'friendly', having questions pre-screened for top officials, rescinding press credentials from those who ask questions they don't like. These aren't theories, they are common occurences for the current Administration.

You want conspiracy theories ... try this one.

What is the recommended anti-virus for avian flu?............Tamiflu
Who holds the patent on Tamiflu ..................................Gilead
Who was a past Chairman of the Board of Gilead .............Donald Rumsfeld

Where have we seen this pattern before?

 

[7starmantis]

Take my point of view seriously, or don't. You're choice.

Your point of view is riddled with suppositions and what you seem to think is "the best way" and "most likely". I never take supositions and asumed likely events as serious facts.

As to if it is media spys or conspiracy theory; can you please remove your blinders. The administration has played these games for 6 years; hand picking audience attendees so they are 'friendly', having questions pre-screened for top officials, rescinding press credentials from those who ask questions they don't like. These aren't theories, they are common occurences for the current Administration.

Its easy to start throwing words back at people after they say them to you, but that doesn't make a point really. Speaking of blinders, if you seriously think "hand picked audience attendees" and "pre-screened questions" is something new with this administration your terribly wrong and quite naive. This has been going on since time began throughout all administrations and partisan lines. However it does not make your consipracy theories any more valid. Your trying to attribute some conspiracy theory to this behavior, simply not the case unless you want to include all administrations (yes even including your beloved Clinton Administration).

You want conspiracy theories ... try this one.

What is the recommended anti-virus for avian flu?............Tamiflu
Who holds the patent on Tamiflu ..................................Gilead
Who was a past Chairman of the Board of Gilead .............Donald Rumsfeld

Where have we seen this pattern before?

Well, your actually quite wrong here. There are four (4) drugs used to treat this type of flu virus. What you speak of as Tamiflu is the drug oseltamivir. Tamiflu is simply not the only perscription carrying Oseltamivir. It seems you must ask who is recomending this. Your sources are left off so I must simply assume. Also, oseltamivir and zanamivir (Relenza) treat both A & B while amantadine and rimantadine treat just A. So it seems there are several choices for treatment of this virus, your claim that Tamiflu is the only one, or the "recommended" one is simply not true.

Sorry to bust your conspiracy theory up, but like I said before, you can't look at only one piece of evidence and make your whole case. You must look at the whole picture before claiming such theories.

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

I'm sorry, 7starmantis, how much stock did you say Donald Rumsfeld holds in Roche?

 

[BlueDragon1981]

It is inevitable .... something will strike sometime...

When is the question...

 

[7starmantis]

I'm sorry, 7starmantis, how much stock did you say Donald Rumsfeld holds in Roche?

"Let me ignore your post and facts to insert my own distorted conspiracy theory based on assumptions that fit my own belief system".


7sm

 

[michaeledward]

It is inevitable .... something will strike sometime...

When is the question...

When is a valid question. Another valid question is what?

And we can not prepare to defend against everything, everywhere, everywhen.

H5N1 should not be at the level of the President at this time. CDC, HHS, yes. President, No.

Currently, this is the 'fear' being pushed by the Administration. Fits a pattern; yellowcake, aluminum tubes, tunnels, flu.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

 

[7starmantis]

Currently, this is the 'fear' being pushed by the Administration. Fits a pattern; yellowcake, aluminum tubes, tunnels, flu.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Seems your pushing more fear and scare tactics here in this thread than I've heard from the Administration as of yet. Offering factual evidence of a possiblity we need to concern ourselves with is not pushing fear, pushing fear is offering up presumed conspiracies and assumed agendas that seem more intent to create fear than do anything else.

The releasing of information to the genral public by the administration does not a scare tactic make. We have a right to know whats going on and what is being considered. I guess you would rather have a closed administration where we only hear whats going on after the fact?

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

Seems your pushing more fear and scare tactics here in this thread than I've heard from the Administration as of yet. Offering factual evidence of a possiblity we need to concern ourselves with is not pushing fear, pushing fear is offering up presumed conspiracies and assumed agendas that seem more intent to create fear than do anything else.

The Bush administration offered 'factual evidence' of Iraq's attempts to purchase yellowcake from Niger (except it wasn't factual, it was planted with a friendly reporter).

The Bush administraiton offered 'factual evidence' that aluminum tubes purchased by Iraq as proof of centerfuge assembly required for nuclear weapons (except the aluminum tubes were a) unsuitable for centerfuge construction and b) exact specification for short range missle construction).

The Bush administration offered 'factual evidence' that al Qaeda was planning attacks on major banks in New Jersey (except the evidence was three years old and had no indication of planning an actual attack).

The Bush administration offered 'factual evidence' that a terrorist attack was planned on a tunnel in Baltimore recently (except the evidence was a single, unsubstantiated report from a questionable source in Denmark).

Fool me once ... shame on you.
Fool me twice ... shame on me.

And did you actuall say 'closed administration' with a straight face? The Bush administration has increased the rate of classifying document by a factor of ten.

Wow....

 

[7starmantis]

stick em up, this is a thread hijack

 

[Xequat]

And we can not prepare to defend against everything, everywhere, everywhen.

True, but shouldn't we try? Your opening argument (and I use that term loosely) was that Bush is an idiot. Mike, you can do better than that. Do you think that the goal should just be to save a certain number of people? Because if the President had said "Hey, we can only save so many people from this flu, so let's just set our goals at 20 million' and then claim victory when we reach that goal, then what would your criticism be? It would be that no matter how unrealistic, the President should always try to save everyone which is exactly what I'm saying now.

Remember SARS? Yeah, me neither, but what could have happened if action hadn't been taken? We'll never know. But if the President were not taking action now, then just as many people who are criticising Bush now would be saying things like "There's a pandemic coming and the do-nothing President hasn't taken a single step to protect us from it. Be afraid." I don't ever want to be asking the question "What if the President had only taken some action against the avian flu?"

It doesn't matter what Bush does or doesn't do, he will be criticized for it. Some have talked about the Katrina relief and people complained about how the President was somewhere else. If he had gone there, he would have been criticized for taking a photo-op and wasting resources for his security whent hose resources could be used for recovery. Either way, his opponents and enemies are going to complain.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

i agree we can't try to fight against everything...that is why I don't care what he does about the situation....i do care that everyone thinks the 9 billion is from the government....yeah and how do they get paid our tax dollars...they cut taxes and spend 9 million....hmm money is going to be a problem somewhere. If people support Bush in this they should support a tax hike to pay for it....how many do you think are willing to do that....

I really can't stand this whole administration and I understand the basis of the conspiracy theory because with Cheaneys dealings and all the business ventures the administration are tied to. Not to have a plan would be dumb though....to make such a big deal about the plan...yes....that is to get focus off of the recent blunders in my opinion. Tell the hospitals, major health organizations etc how you want to deal with it IF it happens. Not strike fear into people....

Sorry for the ramble..in a hurry to get this typed.