Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments

[ATC]

What's a bada/pada kick? Thanks.

Simple switch off counter round kick or a slide off counter round kick. To slide off would really be called a Hujin. The Hujin would be used if the attacking kicker is kicking really deep. The bada is used when the attacker is kicking short and you don't need to move off as far to counter.

This is a bada because he does not slide but switches off as he is kicking.
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In the case of a true hook kick, the leg comes across not forward and down so you can move from it rather easy and a simple bada at the same time would score quite easy. The 45 degree downward axe kick makes the bada harder to do as the kick is coming down and forward and can land on the head or the chest stopping the bada kick. The bada can still be use but you have to time it just right and lean off and extend out while doing it. You may also have to switch off on a slight angle as well, instead of straight back.

The bada kick is one of the most use counter kicks in the WTF style.

 

[puunui]

Padduh Chagi is translated into "receiving kick", where you kick at the same time you are receiving a kick from your opponent. The most common padduh chagi is an in place roundhouse kick with your back leg, where you switch stance and throw a roundhouse kick at the same time while avoiding or blocking your opponent's kick. But it doesn't have to be that particular kick.

 

[golfermatt]

I was reading some threads on sparring and found this. Wasn't Wallace's extreme side stance completely typical of all of the point fighters of his era(Norris,Lewis,..)? Smallest target possible for a straight on attack as a single strike was all it took to score. In a WTF style event it seems that without extremely manipulating shoulders and hips the standard round kick would become slow and telegraphed,also if thrown too quickly it would lack power. Further, they setup this way to use the sidekick also, right? Leg kicks are not permitted in WTF events are they? Lastly, when I watch some old Wallace kickboxing matches, he used a normal boxers stance, I have only seen him use the side stance in point fights.

 

[puunui]

Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.

No, I believe he meant bada kick, which we call under kick. You kick under your opponent's leg, especially if they have that high chamber like Bill Wallace does.

 

[Kwan Jang]

As Xue mentioned, Bill's stance and adaption of his kicks were based off protecting his injured knee and the fact that his right leg was only strong enough to use as his base leg (though he did throw a rare right leg kick like the back kick he landed on Bob Biggs in his retirement fight). He also had problems even pivoting on that leg IIRC, so he made the most of what he had to work with. I've been cross training in kickboxing and Muay Thai for over 30 years now and the stance makes a huge difference in your ability to take or go with leg kicks, especially thrown by a high level MT fighter. Neither a typical TKD stance or Bill's side work well when leg kicks are a factor in the rules.

A bada kick would not be a very good counter to the hook kicks thrown from Wallace's style of chamber by anyone on the same level of ability (of course, if you are a far superior fighter over your opponent, you can make almost anything work). Bill used his knee and shin as a shield as he kicked and was also very skilled at using a downward check using the heel to stop anything trying to sneak in from a low line. The buffer zone provided from the chamber combined with the fact that his side, hook and round kicks were all thrown from the same chamber and could be used to a low, mid or high line without telegraphing really made it very hard to deal with or counter. Don't judge it's effectiveness by those who copy him without really understanding the nuts and bolts of his methods.

As a teenager, I broke my left hip and it took years of PT and training for me to really be able to kick at all w/ my left leg and several more to kick well. So I spent about 7-8 years using his methods because that is what suited me when I had that limitation. Both in sparring and in competition, I had 12 KO's off of his style of hook kick. I would shoot some side kicks and then when they read side, I'd nail them with the hook, often as the payoff on a combo. When I was stable enough to take leg kicks in my training, the side stance left the sciatic too open and I started fighting out of a more typical MT stance, but just adapted Wallace's methods and chamber as I bridged the gap. Don Wilson used a similar approach by using Bill's methods on his lead leg attacks and more of Benny's (Urquidez) for his back leg and hand techniques. Bill's stuff worked great under full-contact/national rules while Wilson's did great under the International rule set (popular in WKA and ISKA).

Now that I fight and train with takedowns and throws, I've had ti adapt and evolve my stances even further. Certain techniques and stances work well within a very limited rule set, such as WTF TKD comps. The more the rule set allows both offensively and defensively, you must adjust your game. Regardless of what sport set you fight under though, IMO it's at least wise to do at least part of your training with no restrictions in mind since that is what the reality of self defense includes.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Great post Kwan Jang!

 

[puunui]

As a teenager, I broke my left hip and it took years of PT and training for me to really be able to kick at all w/ my left leg and several more to kick well. So I spent about 7-8 years using his methods because that is what suited me when I had that limitation. Both in sparring and in competition, I had 12 KO's off of his style of hook kick. I would shoot some side kicks and then when they read side, I'd nail them with the hook, often as the payoff on a combo. When I was stable enough to take leg kicks in my training, the side stance left the sciatic too open and I started fighting out of a more typical MT stance, but just adapted Wallace's methods and chamber as I bridged the gap. Don Wilson used a similar approach by using Bill's methods on his lead leg attacks and more of Benny's (Urquidez) for his back leg and hand techniques. Bill's stuff worked great under full-contact/national rules while Wilson's did great under the International rule set (popular in WKA and ISKA).

Did you ever try to do that bill wallace style at a WTF style competition, especially higher level stuff like nationals? That style used to be very prevalent back in the day but now you never see it anymore. I think the last person to use that kind of style was Arlene Limas, and I think that her success with it was based not so much on the particular technique as it was her high level of experience and timing. She had more competition match wins under her belt of any competitor whenever she entered a USTU national or WTF international event.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Actually, I used it at the Nationals twice and won the first Junior Olympics with it in '81. Obviously WTF TKD comp has evolved away from this (for better or worse) and this was better suited for the fighting sets I described above. Even for Bill (or me at the time), it was about making the most of what we had to use due to our injuries.

 

[Gorilla]

Did you ever try to do that bill wallace style at a WTF style competition, especially higher level stuff like nationals? That style used to be very prevalent back in the day but now you never see it anymore. I think the last person to use that kind of style was Arlene Limas, and I think that her success with it was based not so much on the particular technique as it was her high level of experience and timing. She had more competition match wins under her belt of any competitor whenever she entered a USTU national or WTF international event.

You are seeing the Arlene Limas style of fighting being used much more in Europe. Last year at the Spanish Open it was prevalent among the younger(12 to 17) European Fighters. They are definitely teach this style of fighting! My kids have been training with Arlene over the last 9 months and she coached them at the US Open. I watched them work on her techniques last night. She is an incredible teacher and a wonderful person. It has been a very good transition for my kids as they were more rear leg fighters in the past. TKD is evolving and some of the OLD School is coming back.

 

[msmitht]

FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out.

Wallace does 2 more interesting things. He points the toe - ankle at 90 degrees for theroundhouse kick and makes contact with the toe of the boot. Most make contact with the top of the foot. This allows the foot to goe around the guard if your hands are up.

He also brings his leg more forward and makes contact with more of the bottom of the foot (as oppose to the back of the heel) so his knee is more bent for the hook kick. Again, this allows the foot to go around the guard .

Oh realy? What about lead leg axe? Cut kick? Lopez won a worl gold with that one. I saw a guy ko another with a ll hook to the head whil the guy was spinning in.
It all depends on timing and how you set up your points. I don't see a ll round scoring to the body though. And wallace's style would have to adapt to make it to the international circut. More rear leg kicks and spin kicks(although I saw him land a back kick once).

 

[puunui]

Actually, I used it at the Nationals twice and won the first Junior Olympics with it in '81.

I looked up the results for 1981 JOs in the Fall 1981 issue of the USTU magazine and didn't see your name. When you say "won", do you mean you won gold?

 

[puunui]

FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them.

They score front leg kicks, and have for a while now. They score punches too now.

 

[ATC]

A bada kick would not be a very good counter to the hook kicks thrown from Wallace's style of chamber by anyone on the same level of ability

Well I strongly disagree with that statement. There are quite a few ways to bada and just about all of them would work well. Those that don't think so just don't know how to use them well. Bada counters work in almost every situation if you know what type and have the timing for each down.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine? BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16. After I turned 18, I switched to amateur boxing and pro kickboxing. Now I do Submission Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and won the silver at the NAGA World Grappling Championships in April of last year (No-Gi Expert Super Heavyweight) and the World Jiu-Jitsu Championships (No-Gi Expert Heavyweight) in December of last year.

ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches. How often do you see the bada kicks used in that context? There are some people who might claim that it's because "kickboxers aren't good enough at TKD", but the truth is that you don't see it used in kickboxing or MMA extensively because w/o the strenuous rule restrictions of WTF TKD and the high level of fighters in those sports, it just doesn't have nearly as much success. I will not bash it and say that it is useless and I do use and teach it, but to a much more limited role since we train and spar under a much broader rule set.

 

[puunui]

Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine?

I have the actual magazine; it is not online to my knowledge. I have every magazine that the USTU has ever published. The title of the magazine is "Tae Kwon Do Journal & Martial Arts Research Quarterly", Vol. 1, No. 3, Fall 1981. The editor is Dr. Ken Min. It is the official magazine for the AAU Taekwondo program, the predecessor of the USTU. The AAU turned into the USTU in 1984, not 1985.

The black belt 16-17 year old heavyweight winner is listed as Sun Park; the super heavyweight winner is Brian Tupes. For 16-17 Brown-Red Belt, the Heavyweight winner was Brian Blevins, and Superheavy was Scott de Coursey. For 16-17 green-blue, heavyweight winner was Dong-Hwi Shinn, superheavy Randy Smith. 16-17 year old white/yellow, heavyweight winner was Anthony Thomas, superheavy Lyndel Parks.

BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16.

What weight division? The magazine also lists the winners from nationals that year, and your name is not listed.

Sorry.

 

[puunui]

ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches.

I would direct you to the title of this subject thread, which is "Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments".

 

[Kwan Jang]

UC Berkley 1981:red belt heavyweight 16-17. IIRC Ken Min and Jerome Ritchenbauch (not sure if that is the correct spelling) were the promoters. I probably still have the medal somewhere. I don't know about your magazine (if it exists), but I do know that I fought there and took gold. Also, the '81 nationals held at UC Berkley, I took 4th in the adult welterweight division (red belt), I believe the division was won by Marc Williams (an older team mate of mine) who fought in the '81 Goodwill games between USA and Mexico in the BB division despite him being a red belt.

Regardless of the title of the thread, my response was based on ATC's comment towards my post regarding Bill Wallace's fighting style regarding less restricted rule sets. The severe limitations of WTF TKD sparring rules creates many artificial circumstances that allow what would otherwise be very ineffective strategies and techniques to flourish. As in my previous post, I'll state my opinion that it would be of great value to ALL martial artists to spend serious training time in working on things that go beyond the limitations of their sports rule sets. Even MMA which has the least limited rule set of any martial sport and IMO is the closest to real life close quarter combat should be supplemented to be truly effective. This is why I have cross trained for decades in the FMA's and in RBSD systems as well.

TKD is my traditional base and my roots. I consider TKD as a beautiful art with the most versatile kicking system out there. The sport of WTF TKD was also a sport that I played as a child and when I mostly had a choice between it and point sparring, it was my preferrence. However, when I outgrew childhood, I put aside childish things and evolved further (OK, I admit that at least in part, I am mostly taking a dig at someone who appears to be a hardcore TKD traditionalist that is making some rude and false insinuations, but the sting in my dig is there is an element of truth to it). I do believe that WTF TKD took a wrong turn, though there is some movement in a more positive direction in it's rule set. Though I doubt it will ever go nearly far enough and will also be forever bogged down in it's extreme politics.

 

[ATC]

Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine? BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16. After I turned 18, I switched to amateur boxing and pro kickboxing. Now I do Submission Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and won the silver at the NAGA World Grappling Championships in April of last year (No-Gi Expert Super Heavyweight) and the World Jiu-Jitsu Championships (No-Gi Expert Heavyweight) in December of last year.

ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches. How often do you see the bada kicks used in that context? There are some people who might claim that it's because "kickboxers aren't good enough at TKD", but the truth is that you don't see it used in kickboxing or MMA extensively because w/o the strenuous rule restrictions of WTF TKD and the high level of fighters in those sports, it just doesn't have nearly as much success. I will not bash it and say that it is useless and I do use and teach it, but to a much more limited role since we train and spar under a much broader rule set.

But the context of the OP was Super Foot's style in WTF fighting not the other way around.

Also many think that the lead leg and the cut or side kick are making a comeback but I don't think they are, they were never gone. I have been coaching for the past 10 years now and we have always taught the lead leg round kick and lead leg and rear leg cut (side kick). Our game has not change since I have been coaching. The use of the EPP system just made what we have been doing all along valid.

 

[ATC]

Even MMA which has the least limited rule set of any martial sport and IMO is the closest to real life close quarter combat...

Really?!?! That is debatable. I don't think MMA is that close to real fighting at all. Yes it rule set is less restrictive but not by much. I could list 12 restriction or more that will be used in every real life combat situation that is not in MMA matches. The one restriction that all MMA fighters have that won’t be a part of many or most real altercations is the cage. I would love to see a boxer vs. an MMA fighter on a football field. How many times have you seen a guy shoot for the take down in MMA miss or get stop but have the cage stop the defender of the take down, then have them fight for position on the cage wall until finally they go down. Then the cage is used to pin or restrict movement. It is not that easy to take someone down in the open that does not want to go down. Simple body turns (parries) stop this. Only two people that want to go to the ground will, if in the open. In the cage you can take someone down simply by hugging them against the cage wall and then falling on your own back, pulling them down on top of you, if you want them on the ground. In the open one simply needs to keep moving and turning. MMA is just like every other sport, just that, a sport.

The truth is that most serious practitioners of any MA can defend against many would be criminals. It's when they come up against that hardened street thug that works out and has been in many scuffles on the street. Those types are martial artist in their own sense, and if foced to defend against one, the defender better have a few things that can't be taught, because those thug types have those un-teachable traits. They also happen to be ill tempered and on the wrong side of good also.

Sport is mutual. Self-defense is not. In sport one is trying to out point or KO the other person, both have the same goal. In SD the goals for each are very different. Not points, not position, no cage, no ring, no pulling guard. Pull guard in a SD situation and you could find yourself stabbed, kicked by buddies of the thug standing on the side or whatever else. Never go to the ground if you can avoid it, and you should avoid it at all cost. Two guys trying to see who the better wrestler is great, but other than that, no way should you go to the ground.

Don't let MMA give you that false sense of this is close to real, it is not in my opinion, no sport is.

 

[andyjeffries]

In the 1987 WTF Video "The Art of Taekwondo Competition", which was cutting edge at the time, they called an ax kick a "hook kick", and a hook kick a "whip kick". Korean terms tend to describe the action or motion of the movement, hence you "hook" down on an ax kick and "whip" a spin hook kick.

I digitised my copy of this video and have it on my computer. Even though it's so old now (and times have moved on), I still find it so inspirational!