Biggest martial art bs stories

[Gerry Seymour]

And Kyokushin has spent the last 30 or so years trying to rival Muay Thai, which has no kata, and has largely been unsuccessful, which has led professional Japanese fighters to choose Muay Thai over Kyokushin.

So, if it's slightly less good, then the one thing you spot as a difference must be utterly useless? That's a ridiculous position.

 

[Hanzou]

So, if it's slightly less good, then the one thing you spot as a difference must be utterly useless? That's a ridiculous position.

I wouldn't even say slightly to be quite honest. There's a large enough deficit that Muay Thai is the striking art of choice in almost every case.

 

[KOKarate]

For goodness sake. If you don’t like doing kata don’t do it. If you like it then do it. I’m assuming everyone on here is an adult? Do we really need this ego fueled pissing contest? That’s the reason I didn’t engage with that childish comment in the first place. There are things that I do not practice because I don’t enjoy them but I’m not going to go around saying this or that is useless just because I don’t like it. Everyone has the right to their own opinions but do grown martial artists really need to be doing something that I tell my teenage students not to get involved with?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If all things are equal and kata offers moderate usefulness, then the arts that engage in its practice should have better outcomes. Unfortunately what we're seeing is worse outcomes by the arts that engage in this practice. So clearly something is dragging the overall training method. In my view, kata practice is part of that drag.

In order for all else to be equal, the time spent on kata would have to be in addition to the time spent by the comparison group. So, you'd have two groups training the same basic system, but one puts in 3 more hours a week on kata. Otherwise, kata isn't an addition - it's a substitution for something else. It's that "something" else that may be what's better than kata.

But it's more problematic than that. If you're comparing two different styles, then the mechanics and strategies of the styles may be what makes the difference. And that may or may not be connected to the presence or absence of kata.

Personally, I think kata is of limited usefulness. Spending a lot of time on it, IMO, is taking too much time from something else that will have more positive impact. Even that last statement is hard to prove, though I could provide some reasonable consideration that led me to that conclusion.

 

[Hanzou]

For goodness sake. If you don’t like doing kata don’t do it. If you like it then do it. I’m assuming everyone on here is an adult? Do we really need this ego fueled pissing contest? That’s the reason I didn’t engage with that childish comment in the first place. There are things that I do not practice because I don’t enjoy them but I’m not going to go around saying this or that is useless just because I don’t like it. Everyone has the right to their own opinions but do grown martial artists really need to be doing something that I tell my teenage students not to get involved with?

We're having a mature discussion. No one is personally insulting anyone or making threats. Leave your emotions at the door.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wouldn't even say slightly to be quite honest. There's a large enough deficit that Muay Thai is the striking art of choice in almost every case.

Okay, but are you saying the only difference between those styles is kata? I'm pretty sure I can spot differences between the two groups without ever seeing someone do kata. If there are other differences, which ones matter and which ones don't? Is there one key difference, or a bunch of cumulative differences?

 

[Graywalker]

In 1964, Mas Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate had brought over three of his fighters to the famed Lumpinee Stadium in Thailand to test themselves against three Muay Thai fighters. Two of the Karate fighters, Tadashi Nakamura and Akio Fujihira had won their bouts and both of them having come via Kos. But the third fighter, Kenji Kurosaki had unfortunately received a different outcome.

2 out of 3 ain't that bad.

 

[elder999]

It also allegedly happened over 20 years ago

Don't know him, but knew his mom back when I was at M.I.T.

I can believe it.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, but are you saying the only difference between those styles is kata? I'm pretty sure I can spot differences between the two groups without ever seeing someone do kata. If there are other differences, which ones matter and which ones don't? Is there one key difference, or a bunch of cumulative differences?

Kata is one of the main differences. There are a lot of kata in Kyokushin. However, I will say that Kyokushin’s lack of punching to the head could be another major factor.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Kata is one of the main differences. There are a lot of kata in Kyokushin.

But that's not the only difference. Not even the only 'main' difference. So you need to figure out if that's the important variable, or if other confounding variables are causing the issue instead. And as you stated, there's a lot of kata in Kyokushin. So the issue might not be that kata is a bad training method, just that it's overused in kyokushin.

And if it is that, you have to determine if it's an all-or-nothing thing. So, for instance, is no kata the best option? Is only kata the best option? Is kata 1 hour per week the best, or 5 hour per week, what results in the most effective fighters?

Which obviously we're not really going to know. You'd have to do an actual study, ideally multiple different and repeated studies, to figure that out. But until then you can't actually claim what you're claiming, you can only state it as a hypothesis/what you believe is the issue. Or get frustrated enough that you can do some sort of study to back up your statements (for instance, go to (ideally multiple) muay thai gyms, convince 9 new people to join each, and in each gym have the instructors teach 3 of them the kyokushin kata, spending the same amount of time as kyokushin people, teach 3 of them the kata but not focus on it, and don't teach the last 3 kata. Then have the fighters from each gym join a round robin tournament and look at the results. Maybe multiple tournaments spaced out 6 months/a year/5 years if you want to get fancy with it).

Otherwise making a claim without having that information is spreading potential BS.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.

Yes. You're the acknowledged expert on that subject.

Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.

You're also quite expert at straw men. You persist in claiming people are saying things they're not.

 

[Hanzou]

But that's not the only difference. Not even the only 'main' difference. So you need to figure out if that's the important variable, or if other confounding variables are causing the issue instead. And as you stated, there's a lot of kata in Kyokushin. So the issue might not be that kata is a bad training method, just that it's overused in kyokushin.

And if it is that, you have to determine if it's an all-or-nothing thing. So, for instance, is no kata the best option? Is only kata the best option? Is kata 1 hour per week the best, or 5 hour per week, what results in the most effective fighters?

Which obviously we're not really going to know. You'd have to do an actual study, ideally multiple different and repeated studies, to figure that out. But until then you can't actually claim what you're claiming, you can only state it as a hypothesis/what you believe is the issue. Or get frustrated enough that you can do some sort of study to back up your statements (for instance, go to (ideally multiple) muay thai gyms, convince 9 new people to join each, and in each gym have the instructors teach 3 of them the kyokushin kata, spending the same amount of time as kyokushin people, teach 3 of them the kata but not focus on it, and don't teach the last 3 kata. Then have the fighters from each gym join a round robin tournament and look at the results. Maybe multiple tournaments spaced out 6 months/a year/5 years if you want to get fancy with it).

Otherwise making a claim without having that information is spreading potential BS.

Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?

Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.

 

[dvcochran]

Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?

Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.

@Hanzou, has you MA experience ever included kata/poomsae to any thorough extent? I am guessing No. So you are railing on something you have zero position against. By virtue you are swatting at dead space and trying to sway people about a topic you know nothing about.
I get it; you are a new(er) generation, fast forward person. Not a bad thing. But you cross a line when you bash people who are not of the same ilk. Bashing something because it is 'not the way I learned it' just shows your immaturity and inexperience.
There is an old commercial where the tag line was "Try it you will like it". It very much applies to this situation.
At this point I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[Hanzou]

@Hanzou, has you MA experience ever included kata/poomsae to any thorough extent? I am guessing No. So you are railing on something you have zero position against. By virtue you are swatting at dead space and trying to sway people about a topic you know nothing about.
I get it; you are a new(er) generation, fast forward person. Not a bad thing. But you cross a line when you bash people who are not of the same ilk. Bashing something because it is 'not the way I learned it' just shows your immaturity and inexperience.
There is an old commercial where the tag line was "Try it you will like it". It very much applies to this situation.
At this point I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Yeah, I have a second degree BB in Shotokan. I spent my formative years in martial arts doing kata, and it did absolutely nothing for me but allow me to advance to the next belt.

In short, thanks but no thanks for the assumption.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Don't know him, but knew his mom back when I was at M.I.T.

I can believe it.

Don't know him or his mom. But I knew about her when I was hanging around Boston. Read a couple comments made by Mike Tyson after his Ip Man movie, as well as a few comments my the Hong Kong Martial Arts crowd, and I can believe it to

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah, I have a second degree BB in Shotokan. I spent my formative years in martial arts doing kata, and it did absolutely nothing for me but allow me to advance to the next belt.

In short, thanks but no thanks for the assumption.

Respectfully, did you ever consider your Shotokan environment was not ideal? Possibly left a bad impression?

 

[Hanzou]

Respectfully, did you ever consider your Shotokan environment was not ideal? Possibly left a bad impression?

Recently, my cousin wanted me to help her find a martial arts school for her kids. She didn't approve of Bjj, so I suggested TKD or a local karate dojo. We visited both classes, and execution of the techniques were simply horrid. However, it was perfect for her children so I suggested the TKD school because the kicking impressed the girls. Compared to that, the environment I learned Karate in was absolutely spectacular.

It wasn't the environment, it was the training, and it was highly traditional training that stressed kata practice and the perfection of technique alongside "semi-hard contact sparring". When I went up against the boxer, I was up against a superior athlete utilizing a superior method, backed by a superior system of training. In short, boxing is simply the superior fighting method. There's no way around that. When I studied boxing for a few months after leaving Shotokan, that reality was quite obvious. I became a better fighter in 6 months of boxing than I did with 8 years of karate.

 

[mograph]

I knew a guy who said that his master could hide his heart beat by moving his heart elsewhere in his body.
He actually believed that story. Yow.

 

[Buka]

To the thread, biggest B.S......

Is that Martial Artists get along with each other.

 

[JP3]

In order for all else to be equal, the time spent on kata would have to be in addition to the time spent by the comparison group. So, you'd have two groups training the same basic system, but one puts in 3 more hours a week on kata. Otherwise, kata isn't an addition - it's a substitution for something else. It's that "something" else that may be what's better than kata.

But it's more problematic than that. If you're comparing two different styles, then the mechanics and strategies of the styles may be what makes the difference. And that may or may not be connected to the presence or absence of kata.

Personally, I think kata is of limited usefulness. Spending a lot of time on it, IMO, is taking too much time from something else that will have more positive impact. Even that last statement is hard to prove, though I could provide some reasonable consideration that led me to that conclusion.

Let me jump in with something that might help clear this up... or it might just make cloudy water even more murky. I'm not sure.

Kata is a multi-meaning word, especially in Japanese... I feel like we can agree on that.

In one use, it's a pattern of several movements, predetermined techniques and movement like we've all seen, seen and seen again, right? WTF's Koryo, ATA's Shimjun, Basic Forms 1-3 yaddayaddayadda

In another use, it is the practice of a single technique, from start to finish, done with as much exacting perfection as the practitioner can at that time manage, whether at speed or very slowly.

And in yet another use, it is the simple stringing together of a pair, trio or short chain of techniques, even when done on the fly, practiced so as to work on the manner/method of the technique or technique flow.

So... everybody does kata, even Muay Thai. I spent 20 years doing MT and I could fall into an almost self-hypnotic state while working my heavy bag routine... just like when doing my first TKD poomse... just like working "duck under the rope" uppercut drills with a partner holding target pads. To me... all of that is "kata."

It might not be Kata, to you, gentle reader.

All of y'all are "gentle" readers, right?