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If skill and will are equal....
Don't think I've ever been in or around a streetfest or a sparring match where skill and will were equal. These are gigantic variables.
I will add a minor bit to the either/or discussion, though: Jimmy H. Woo, who was of average size but reputedly a scary fighter, is said by those who trained with him to preach: Don't use strength, use leverage.
It's cliche, I'm sure it's been said before but:
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Valid points there, Kidswarrior.
It is certainly the case that fighters are seldom matched in either their technical skill or their mental toughness.
In this hypothetical discussion, I think what we're actually talking our way around to is not "does size matter" (because I honestly think that that is a 'given') but which is more important between skill, will and physique.
In its way, that's a much trickier question as, taken in isolation, I think there are few people that wouldn't say that more of all three attributes is a good thing.
As a side issue, it's quite intriguing that altho' noone would say that having less good technique or inferior will is better, there are some that will state that being less well physiqued (sp?) is an advantage.
I wonder why that is? Perhaps it has its roots in the ingrained attitude that we all like the underdog to 'do good' and whilst you can't directly see, at first glance, skill or will, it is fairly obvious if a chap is built like Arnold .
By the way, for an inversion of this 'root for the little guy' rection, watch the sword fight at the end of Rob Roy. The 'underdog' reponse becomes 'root for the big but less skilled guy'.
Let me ask this. Between a semi-truck, and a volkswagon, which has the advantage if both drivers have the exact same skill and will to live. If you are thinking about crashing them into one another, then you might give the victory to the semi.
However, what if I said that the challenge was driving up a steep hill, or driving down a steep decline with lots of curves, and cliffs on one side. Nature provides disadvantages for the more massive bodies.
The Martial Art is intended to teach us to not attack, but defend, and counter-attack only when it is safe to do so. The person who commits to an attack is placing themselves at a disadvantage.
However, if the skills are equal, and I am the smaller person, I must remain the "defender" which will allow me to prevail in nearly every case (barring any unusual circumstances).
It does not matter that your sledge hammer is bigger than my handy-man's hammer. The moment you pick up your huge, heavy sledge hammer and swing it at me, you are at a disadvantage.
I will drop my hammer and take you down bare handed, because you are attacking, and I am defending. If our skills are equal, your attack has placed you in a vulnerable position, thus you will likely lose.
Every scenario is different in real life, but physical size and strength are not an advantage unless you are attacking a person who is not sufficiently skilled in the Martial Art.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
Well, at least here you seem to agree that a larger body is at a disadvantage in some circumstances. Now, the translation to physical combat that I am making is first that a larger body moves differently according to the laws of nature. Those differences will typically increase momentum once the body is in motion, but slow the speed and acceleration.Certainly. And if by 'win' you mean the combatant best able to squeeze through narrow gaps, run over long distances or climb up a thin fence or or tree, then a larger body is a disadvantage.
Not sure what your point is by this comment. Perhaps you can clarify.Context, context, context!
Again, not sure of the point relative to this topic, but yes, you would be taking the advantage of surprise. However, the skill of a Martial Artist should keep them alert, positioned, and prepared to prevent this kind of attack.If I belt someone in the back of the head with a barstool, I am very much taking the advantage.
By your above comment here, it appears to me that, as you have studied over the years, you have not had this fact taught to you. Some people study from self-discovery and never find these truths. Others have teachers who either did not know this, did not convey it clearly, or the student did not remain long enough to learn it.I don't see how. The defender has no natural advantage over the attacker.
A poor analogy. Muscle generates excess power, enabling a larger muscle to move a limb faster than a smaller one. Thus the 'sledge hammer' is not only heavier, but faster and more resistent to damage, with no loss in accuracy.
My analogy might have been a poor one if it did not convey the point as well as intended, however your assumption about heavier and faster is not accurate, in my opinion. I can swing a small hammer much faster than a strong man swings a sledgehammer. Once a sledge is in motion, it has greater mass and momentum, but if I hurl a small hammer at the same time a strong guy throws a sledge, mine will reach him first. (Think about David and Goliath)
Secondly, the analogy about the sledge is not to deny what a sledge can do, it is to point out that once committed to an attack with such a large weapon, it is difficult to change course. I can move a small hammer left, right, up, down, and whip it about with little effort, and never be so committed to a strike that I can not stop it, or change its direction with relative ease.
However, in terms of a physical confrontation, being larger (obviously in terms of muscle, not fat) is never a disadvantage. You gain reach, speed, strength, and natural armour without losing sensitivity, flexibility, technique or skill.
Physical size and strength are always an advantage. They increase your reach, your leverage, your speed and your ability to absorb damage without reducing any of the attributes of a smaller person. It's why they have weight classes in all forms of combat sport, and it's not because the little guys would beat the big guys...
Since my father was a professional wrestler, I too wrestled with Bobo Brazil's group in Michigan (a few matches during the mid 1980s). I would disagree with the notion that the bigger and stronger guys had an advantage without limitations due to their size and restricted mobility. Consider Andre the Giant. Large, strong, but lacked speed, mobility, and agility. There are plenty of examples, even of the best current wrestlers.
You said the advantage of size includes:
"Increase your reach." Granted, but most Martial Artists possess skills which nullify what would be an advantage against an unskilled opponent. As stated earlier, stretch your reach out to grab or strike me, and you have extended your arm into a vulnerable position. If you keep your arms close to you for more power, then your reach is no longer an issue.
"...your leverage." Leverage is a physical application of pressure in relationship to a fulcrum. If I want to move a bolder, I place a fulcrum near it, and get a long pole. If the bolder is too heavy, I get a longer pole. Thus, if my opponent has a longer arm (pole), the advantage of leverage is mine when applied properly. If I am missing your point on this, please explain what you meant.
"...your speed." Again, I don't know any evidence to support a "larger equals increased speed" capability. Running fast in a track meet requires a certain amount of toned muscles, but I do not believe we would ever see a Mr. America, or Mr. Universe out run a smaller, weaker sprinter. Guys like Bruce Lee were fast but with compact with toned muscles, not large guys with huge muscles.
"...your ability to absorb damage" This is only true if the lager person's opponent is an unskilled brawler. A Martial Artist knows where to strike at weak, vulnerable, and unprotected targets, and how to apply power that size and muscle will still be unable to prevent total destruction. The idea that a big muscular guy is going to allow punches and kicks bounce off his massive, hulking body is one for the movies, or against a novice fighter.
In my experience, and my opinion, any advantage that size or strength would ordinarily appear to have, applies to limited situations, and are countered through natural laws. Only a lack of skill would fall prey to size and brute force. A person who is standing still, is not going to do damage if you are out of range. They must first move to close the distance and make an attack (if they are the aggressor, and you are the defender). Walking is a series of falling and catching your balance.
The moment you propel your body forward in an attack, you are entering a controlled fall. If your front foot does not stop that fall, you will go down. Aggression is commitment to some kind of movement which places the aggressor at a physically, scientifically, and natural disadvantage momentarily. Skilled Martial Artists are trained to exploit that moment of vulnerability. The large, heavier attacker projects more weight into this trap. The stronger person applies more power and force to be used against him in such a trap.
Perhaps this does not convey the lesson as good as it is in a classroom, so I invite those who wish to visit Southwest Michigan to come see me. :ultracool
CM D.J. Eisenhart
___________________
Last Fearner
Hi Adept! Thank you for taking time to clearly express your difference in conclusions on this topic with a good point and counter-point presentation. I hope you don't mind that I continue with attempting to explain my position as I feel this it the best way for all to gain from these discussion threads. As long as we keep our opposing replies respectful, I don't mind that you disagree, and I enjoy reading your perspective.
Now, the translation to physical combat that I am making is first that a larger body moves differently according to the laws of nature. Those differences will typically increase momentum once the body is in motion, but slow the speed and acceleration.
Secondly, the mere notion of a bigger, stronger person seems to imply greater threat of damage, but this is contrary to Martial Art application of scientific principles of motion. The greater the size, and strength, the more power applied when attacking, thus the more power available to the defender when using the opponent's own strength, size, and weight against him.
Not sure what your point is by this comment. Perhaps you can clarify.
When both opponents are in the "on guard" stance, the tip of their foil is pointed diagonally upward toward their opponent's face. When they attack, they lower the tip, lunge forward, and extend their sword arm to become straight. The defender parries by remaining in a position similar to the on guard stance with their sword arm bent (either pointing up or down). The strong position of the defender will always prevail (if timing is correct) because the attacker must extend to a weaker, straight arm position to strike.
Most every aspect of Martial Art physical combat should teach the student ways to position himself, and use their stronger muscles against an attacker's weaker muscles. This is done with a distinct advantage when my objective is to defend, and protect my body as opposed to my opponent's objective to extend and attack.
My analogy might have been a poor one if it did not convey the point as well as intended, however your assumption about heavier and faster is not accurate, in my opinion. I can swing a small hammer much faster than a strong man swings a sledgehammer. Once a sledge is in motion, it has greater mass and momentum, but if I hurl a small hammer at the same time a strong guy throws a sledge, mine will reach him first. (Think about David and Goliath)
You said the advantage of size includes:
"Increase your reach." Granted, but most Martial Artists possess skills which nullify what would be an advantage against an unskilled opponent. As stated earlier, stretch your reach out to grab or strike me, and you have extended your arm into a vulnerable position. If you keep your arms close to you for more power, then your reach is no longer an issue.
"...your leverage."
Leverage is a physical application of pressure in relationship to a fulcrum. If I want to move a bolder, I place a fulcrum near it, and get a long pole. If the bolder is too heavy, I get a longer pole. Thus, if my opponent has a longer arm (pole), the advantage of leverage is mine when applied properly. If I am missing your point on this, please explain what you meant.
"...your speed."
Again, I don't know any evidence to support a "larger equals increased speed" capability. Running fast in a track meet requires a certain amount of toned muscles, but I do not believe we would ever see a Mr. America, or Mr. Universe out run a smaller, weaker sprinter. Guys like Bruce Lee were fast but with compact with toned muscles, not large guys with huge muscles.
"...your ability to absorb damage"
This is only true if the lager person's opponent is an unskilled brawler. A Martial Artist knows where to strike at weak, vulnerable, and unprotected targets, and how to apply power that size and muscle will still be unable to prevent total destruction.
Aggression is commitment to some kind of movement which places the aggressor at a physically, scientifically, and natural disadvantage momentarily. Skilled Martial Artists are trained to exploit that moment of vulnerability.
The large, heavier attacker projects more weight into this trap. The stronger person applies more power and force to be used against him in such a trap.