Benefit of pushups?

[CheukMo]

Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow). Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you. You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this. See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep? this is the natural motion of the arm. Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it. Still no tension

There may be no tension, but the triceps have to either move or break. But I do understand what you mean by using no tension in a WC punch and you're right.

The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist. We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.

That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)

 

[CuongNhuka]

That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)

Which is shared with Kinokenkyu-Kai Aikido, AKA Ki Aikido. Are you aware of that, or is that were you know of that prinicple?

 

[CheukMo]

Which is shared with Kinokenkyu-Kai Aikido, AKA Ki Aikido. Are you aware of that, or is that were you know of that prinicple?

I learned of it studying about Wing Chun. I didn't know Ki Aikido shared the immovable elbow principle with Wing Chun. However, if I were ever forced to choose another MA, it would be Aikido.

 

[brocklee]

There may be no tension, but the triceps have to either move or break. But I do understand what you mean by using no tension in a WC punch and you're right.


That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)

You're correct. The tricep does move a very little bit but it has no function. It's not to pull the fist down or add power. Actually, I believe that once you get good enough you may be able to add muscular function as an aid to WC power but that's down the road though. It's like the "rotating on the center axis" theory. Forms 1 and 2 spend the entire time focusing on this and then you get to the third form and it teaches you how to bend it. So you CAN add tricep power but it will hinder your learning experience if you're not ready to take it in. Sometime after becoming a sifu

 

[brocklee]

I agree with what JKS said. Many Karate folks (and guys who do most none-Wing Chun Martial Arts) agree that Wing Chun guys put little force into there punches. However, some old school Boxers however did what looks remarkibly like the Wing Chun punch. IE with only the arm and the shoulder. Because they understood the principle of none-commitment.

I believe the wc punch is very power and explosive because of the relaxed state in which the punch is thrown. There are alot of people that say they know WC, and they we're taught the forms, but they don't apply it correctly. Getting into a fight creates lots of stress on the mind. If the person cant control that stress, they can't be truly relaxed and will start using muscles. If you go toe to toe with a WC practitioner that DOES know what he's doing and WAS taught how to transfer energy properly, you won't ever see him chain punching, leaning back, or rotating off of his axis(*cough* WT ). You will see short, directs burst aimed towards knocking the opponent off of his structure and taking his line. When I hear people say that the WC punch is weak, it makes me think that they have met someone that wasn't very good at it.

 

[brocklee]

Thus, by your own descriptions... The way you've been taught, you are literally flinging your hand out by the torque of your shoulders. I do believe I left that possibility open... It's impossible to "unbend" your arm without using your tricep, unless it's either falling under the influence of gravity, or being flung by some form of centripetal force. Newton's Laws apply to skeletons, too.

The torque comes from the drilling effect created by the elbow. The shoulder joint simply rotates a small amount allowing the elbow to naturally move forward. The fist does fall because of gravity and the full extension is what stops it from falling. Because the forearm shoots up, the fist appears to be going straight even though it is dropping in reference to the elbow. Kind of a flinging. We say launching, cause it sounds cooler

 

[CuongNhuka]

I learned of it studying about Wing Chun. I didn't know Ki Aikido shared the immovable elbow principle with Wing Chun. However, if I were ever forced to choose another MA, it would be Aikido.

From my expereince in Cuong Nhu (which includes Wing Chun and Aikido) I have noticed that the two styles do flow pretty well. However, the usage of the immovable elbow in Aikido is slightly differnit from Wing Chun's. Ki Aikido uses it to demostrate that Ki exists, and it's power. From my understanding in Ki Aikido there are two differnit sets of ranks. One is the physical matterial (the Aikido), the other is the Ki ranks. Which is based off the power and ability you have demostrated with your Ki. The two ranks tend to go together, but dont have to.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I believe the wc punch is very power and explosive because of the relaxed state in which the punch is thrown. There are alot of people that say they know WC, and they we're taught the forms, but they don't apply it correctly. Getting into a fight creates lots of stress on the mind. If the person cant control that stress, they can't be truly relaxed and will start using muscles. If you go toe to toe with a WC practitioner that DOES know what he's doing and WAS taught how to transfer energy properly, you won't ever see him chain punching, leaning back, or rotating off of his axis(*cough* WT ). You will see short, directs burst aimed towards knocking the opponent off of his structure and taking his line. When I hear people say that the WC punch is weak, it makes me think that they have met someone that wasn't very good at it.

Yep. You go against a guy with real experince in Wing Chun, you're pretty much screwed. Especially if He/She has analised how you would use the forms, or the Pac Sao/Chum Chio drill. There's an arm or neck break in there if you look.

 

[brocklee]

Yep. You go against a guy with real experince in Wing Chun, you're pretty much screwed. Especially if He/She has analised how you would use the forms, or the Pac Sao/Chum Chio drill. There's an arm or neck break in there if you look.

I know of the neck break, but I don't see where the arm break comes from.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Against a left punch (opponents perspective) you Pac with your left to there hand, and with your right to there elbow. Arm break.

 

[brocklee]

Against a left punch (opponents perspective) you Pac with your left to there hand, and with your right to there elbow. Arm break.

Ah....yes. Placed in that position, in a RL situation, seems like you would have to step off of your line to complete the break...giving them the line. Is it a practical move?

 

[CuongNhuka]

You don't really need to step off line. Opponents power + Power of both your hands = Break. If you step off line, you will actualy make the technique weaker.
If you cann't break there arm from go, you can roll it so your right arm is in the Bong Sao position with there arm at your shoulder (the higher the better, this will require that you step forward), and you will have them in a painful "come along". If they roll so there back is facing you, you need to lean forward, this will drive them to the ground, and pin them there. It is normal to roll away from the arm in the lock to releave the strain, anymore then that and they are trying to get away.
HAVE FUN!

 

[brocklee]

You don't really need to step off line. Opponents power + Power of both your hands = Break. If you step off line, you will actualy make the technique weaker.
If you cann't break there arm from go, you can roll it so your right arm is in the Bong Sao position with there arm at your shoulder (the higher the better, this will require that you step forward), and you will have them in a painful "come along". If they roll so there back is facing you, you need to lean forward, this will drive them to the ground, and pin them there. It is normal to roll away from the arm in the lock to releave the strain, anymore then that and they are trying to get away.
HAVE FUN!

You're right, I see exactly what you're saying. If you don't commit to the break, follow through and walk them out.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Bingo. Who says Wing Chun doesn't teach ground fighting?

 

[KamonGuy2]

You are talking about 'tok sao' which is part of chum kil

This works in some situations but not all.

If you think of how big some people's arms are, how their punch comes in etc, it works about 40% of the time

It is effective in the sense that once you have that persons arm, even if the technique fails, you can float on with attack after attack

As for Aikido - most aikido that has been used on me in tournaments has been dreadful. Again, I never write off a martial art completely as there are always one or two good schools out there. I just think if you are going to do something wing chun, use BJJ or Judo

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm not familiar with Tok Sao, keep in mind I don't actualy train in Wing Chun. I might know the movement but refer to it as something else, would you mind describing it for me?

I am aware that it wont work all of the time. But nothing is garanteed. Everything is a chance, has it pros and cons, and so for and so on.

As for Aikido, there aren't really any Aikido tournaments. Or do you mean Aikido added to Wing Chun? The thing about Wing Chun is you have to learn how to alter the techniques for the individual, and the situation, same with Aikido. That's the real power behind both styles, the fact that with just a few handfuls of techniques one is pretty well defended against most attacks. But this takes alot of practice and an indepth understanding of what the techniques are all about.

 

[brocklee]

. That's the real power behind both styles, the fact that with just a few handfuls of techniques one is pretty well defended against most attacks. But this takes alot of practice and an indepth understanding of what the techniques are all about.

I wouldn't quite call it technique but more or less concept. When you apply a few handfuls of concept one is pretty well defended against most attacks. The technique is the personal twist that the practitioner incorporates to the concept making the move unique to that person. You can have two people throwing poks against the same punch. Both having the same concept are successful. If one of the individuals has added a bit of technique to the same pok, it will still be successful but may have an added job to that motion.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I wouldn't quite call it technique but more or less concept. When you apply a few handfuls of concept one is pretty well defended against most attacks. The technique is the personal twist that the practitioner incorporates to the concept making the move unique to that person. You can have two people throwing poks against the same punch. Both having the same concept are successful. If one of the individuals has added a bit of technique to the same pok, it will still be successful but may have an added job to that motion.

True, but I have noticed that every Martial Art is just a set of concepts. The physical material is just a way of expressing the concepts, so as to better ingrain it in your goard.

 

[brocklee]

True, but I have noticed that every Martial Art is just a set of concepts. The physical material is just a way of expressing the concepts, so as to better ingrain it in your goard.

Correct, so if you're learning WC from a sifu, not only are you picking up the concept of WC....you're also picking up the techniques that the sifu has decided upon.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Bingo. Whats fun is if you really look, you can find all kinds of fun ways to make small modifications to one technique to get anouther. Like change the angle, rotate your hips, alter the height, change the angle, so on. I've done that and come up with several new techinques to my circulum. The same could be done with many forms and all drills, so as to gain a deeper understanding of the matterial.
There's a reason I say "Kata should be your Martial God" keep in mind, you could easily make the argument that drills are 2 person forms.