Benefit of pushups?

[Nyrotic]

Start at 2 or 3. And don't kill yourself. If you go too high too fast, you will seriously (and permantly) mess up your hands.

Actually, I would do something like 20 up until I switched to WC. Soon after I heard about the possible damage from fingertip pushups and stopped.

Thanks for the info,
Nyro

 

[CuongNhuka]

And how long has it been since you quite doing fingertip pushups? Might want to consider starting over from the beginning.

 

[monji112000]

I was thinking about starting push ups also, but I just got to the point to where I can throw a punch and not tense up the pectoral. I'm afraid I may lose that ability and am not really in the mood to have to re-train it.

I don't really know what to say about that. How do you move your arm without tensing your chest muscles even a little? DO you believe that will make you faster? Just wondering.

JMO but as long as you aren't going crazy with tensing, having your chest muscles tense a little is ok.

 

[NanFeiShen]

Push-ups with a fist are probabily the better choice of push-up for WC training.
When you are lying on the floor, place your fists as close to your body as possible, in line with the upper part of your chest, and push up from there, it is the closest action to resemble WC punching, push-up wise.
The idea is to develop the Triceps for punching, therefore back "press-ups" are also very beneficial (hands behind you on a support, to lower your body)
Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.

True, but having a fast pull back is useful. It gives that "cracking a whip" kind of internal damage that alot of styles move towards.

 

[tahuti]

Get 2 pieces of woodn dowel about 10cm each, put long nail in each of them and you get 2 T's, now do pushups on them. Than there are plyometric pushups.

Regarding power vs strength, definition of strength is maximum voluntary contraction of muscles while power is maximum contraction in very short time interval. Force is calculated as F=m*a (mass, acceleration). If you fight in weight categories than mass is fixed, but in self defense that is not true.

Gaining strength without gaining mass it is possible, if you don't believe look for olympic weight lifters, they can still break world record even if they compete in weight divisions. Reason there is something called absolute strength, you will never be able to experience it except if you don't plan to connect yourself to nearby power outlet, definition is maximal involuntary contraction. Difference between absolute and maximal strength is called strength difference, it is actually improvement in nervous system to properly fire up muscle fiber, of course you can't improve it forever before you need to grow more muscles (gymnasts would love it).

RPM = repetition maximum

very high weight / low rep = Maximal strength (1-5 reps, 90-100% rpm)

Med weight / med rep + high speed = Explosive strength

low wieght / high rep = Endurance (over 15 reps)

low weight / high rep + high speed = Speed

8-12 rep with high weight = hyperthropy (growth of muscle) (75-85%rpm)

Now how you gonna achieve resistance with weights, bodyweights, resistance bands, sledgehammer, pushing car, it doesn't matter if you stay in that particular repetition range.

Maximum strength training improves intermuscular and intramusclular coordination, in other words coordination between different muscle groups and fibers in the same muscle. Disadvantage negatively impacts explosive strength.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Let me geuss, you spend alot of time lifting weights?

 

[tahuti]

Sorry, used weights as synonym for resistance.

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK... let me rephrase. You spend alot of time doing conditioning. Is that better?

 

[brocklee]

Push-ups with a fist are probabily the better choice of push-up for WC training.
When you are lying on the floor, place your fists as close to your body as possible, in line with the upper part of your chest, and push up from there, it is the closest action to resemble WC punching, push-up wise.
The idea is to develop the Triceps for punching, therefore back "press-ups" are also very beneficial (hands behind you on a support, to lower your body)
Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.

Hm. You guys use your triceps to throw punches? I know that my tri's get sore when I do my punches incorrectly. It's amazing to see how much different each lineage of the same type of MA can be.

The way it is taught in my school, and once again this isn't saying it's the right or wrong way, is that the motion of the punch comes from torquing and twisting the joints in the elbow and shoulder. This maintains the same amount of power, which is transferred from the heal to the arm by torquing the hips, throughout the punch and allows you to strike the opponent with the same amount of power no matter what distance they are at. Anyone else have a similar punch?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thats how we punch in Karate. Does that count?

 

[jks9199]

Hm. You guys use your triceps to throw punches? I know that my tri's get sore when I do my punches incorrectly. It's amazing to see how much different each lineage of the same type of MA can be.

The way it is taught in my school, and once again this isn't saying it's the right or wrong way, is that the motion of the punch comes from torquing and twisting the joints in the elbow and shoulder. This maintains the same amount of power, which is transferred from the heal to the arm by torquing the hips, throughout the punch and allows you to strike the opponent with the same amount of power no matter what distance they are at. Anyone else have a similar punch?

The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."

In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."

 

[brocklee]

The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."

My arm extends (unbends) because I rotate the [SIZE=-1]humerus at the shoulder socket. The elbow then twists causing the elbow hinge to extend from 95 degrees to 135 degrees. The only muscles involved are in the legs, which are used to maintain your structure. If you we're to wish more power into the punch, you would shift your feet, rotate the hips, and then assist the energy by aligning the joints until the point of contact. If you we're to desire more power, do the previous and then step into it.[/SIZE]

In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."

It's to my understanding that you don't want to snap anything, unless it belongs to the other person. The reason being, when you snap your punch you're giving the punch a destination where it finishes. This requires that you distance yourself from the target to adequately deliver the power accurately. If the person steps into your punch and you aren't able to get that snap out, you end up with a 40% punch that's kinda mooshy. We train to have 90% power in the punch from the moment it leaves the heart. 3 inches out or full extension should have the same power and this will result in not having a snap.

 

[tahuti]

Try to do very slow punch and see which muscles contract.

CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.

 

[brocklee]

Try to do very slow punch and see which muscles contract.

CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.

I do them very slowly so that I'm able to accurately build the muscle memory. Still no tensing tri or pec.. YAY

 

[CuongNhuka]

CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.

Really? Seems like you would spend more time.

 

[zDom]

I do them very slowly so that I'm able to accurately build the muscle memory. Still no tensing tri or pec.. YAY

Even if you are not TENSING the triceps or pecs, jks is correct: to straighten the arm, you pretty much HAVE to use triceps. Likewise, to move the arm forward, pecs are going to be used.

Not saying that is where the power of the strike comes from, but those muscle groups must be involved.

 

[brocklee]

Even if you are not TENSING the triceps or pecs, jks is correct: to straighten the arm, you pretty much HAVE to use triceps. Likewise, to move the arm forward, pecs are going to be used.

Not saying that is where the power of the strike comes from, but those muscle groups must be involved.

Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow). Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you. You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this. See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep? this is the natural motion of the arm. Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it. Still no tension The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist. We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.

 

[jks9199]

The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."

In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."

Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow). Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you. You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this. See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep? this is the natural motion of the arm. Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it. Still no tension The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist. We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.

Thus, by your own descriptions... The way you've been taught, you are literally flinging your hand out by the torque of your shoulders. I do believe I left that possibility open... It's impossible to "unbend" your arm without using your tricep, unless it's either falling under the influence of gravity, or being flung by some form of centripetal force. Newton's Laws apply to skeletons, too.

I deliberately didn't break down exactly what role each body part plays in a punch; it's too complex, and too dependent on the system. Really, considering that their ain't but so many ways to make your fist collide with a target -- those differences are what make the difference between systems. For example, I know powerful punching approaches that work while one foot is in the air; many traditional karate stylists would argue that there is no power to be had in that position.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I agree with what JKS said. Many Karate folks (and guys who do most none-Wing Chun Martial Arts) agree that Wing Chun guys put little force into there punches. However, some old school Boxers however did what looks remarkibly like the Wing Chun punch. IE with only the arm and the shoulder. Because they understood the principle of none-commitment.