Belt rankings in kicboxing

[Tez3]

There didnt use to be belts in karate when it first started now there is. Martial arts are changing all the time maybe one day mma black belts will be a common thing. Mma itself did a lot to change martial arts conceptions so you can't say if it isn't broke don't fix it because if people had stuck with that attitude martial arts would never evolve

Of course I can say it, boxing doesn't have belts nor does wrestling so why should MMA have them just because someone wants to make a bit of money on grading fees? Karate was 'invented' for want of a better word for entirely different reasons than MMA. Many people think karate hasn't evolved but has rather gone backwards and become a shadow of what it's supposed to be.. empty hand civilian self defence. For many point sparring and the emphasis on children's classes leading to 10 year old black belts has tarnished karate, gradings have little value in many places so why MMA should have gradings to satisfy those who think a black piece of material around their waists makes then a fighter I don't know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True enough but why would we grade just because we could? We don't need to unless people want to earn themselves more money. The system isn't broke so why fix it?

Grading isn't usually about money. For some students (definitely not all), it is a good way to understand where you are on the path. It can also be an easy cue for who you want to work with. If I were training MMA not for competition, and was at a gym where there were folks I hadn't worked with, grading would let me spot which people were a bit ahead of me - where I'd probably want to work when I'm trying to push myself.

It's by no means necessary, not always useful, and doesn't fit all students. It seems a less-than-optimal fit to MMA, but perhaps that's because the non-grading of MMA has attracted those who aren't interested in grading. If some gyms/schools offer grading, perhaps they draw in a different group of folks who can benefit from that training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course I can say it, boxing doesn't have belts nor does wrestling so why should MMA have them just because someone wants to make a bit of money on grading fees? Karate was 'invented' for want of a better word for entirely different reasons than MMA. Many people think karate hasn't evolved but has rather gone backwards and become a shadow of what it's supposed to be.. empty hand civilian self defence. For many point sparring and the emphasis on children's classes leading to 10 year old black belts has tarnished karate, gradings have little value in many places so why MMA should have gradings to satisfy those who think a black piece of material around their waists makes then a fighter I don't know.

The "problems" with karate are only problems if we assume it should only be used to teach empty-hand civilian self-defense. Some folks just want to compete, and there's nothing wrong with that (though it's not my cup of tea). Even the exercise versions (like Blanks' stuff) has a reasonable place, though it has absolutely nothing to do with self-defense.

Now, if those things also drag down the schools legitimately trying to teach karate for self-defense, then it is a problem, but the problem isn't the competitive schools - it's at the schools that changed where they shouldn't have (and, perhaps, failing to change where they should). I think there's a fallacy in referring to karate as a single thing. It's a collective, for sure, but there are groups within that collective with very different goals.

 

[Tez3]

The "problems" with karate are only problems if we assume it should only be used to teach empty-hand civilian self-defense. Some folks just want to compete, and there's nothing wrong with that (though it's not my cup of tea). Even the exercise versions (like Blanks' stuff) has a reasonable place, though it has absolutely nothing to do with self-defense.

Now, if those things also drag down the schools legitimately trying to teach karate for self-defense, then it is a problem, but the problem isn't the competitive schools - it's at the schools that changed where they shouldn't have (and, perhaps, failing to change where they should). I think there's a fallacy in referring to karate as a single thing. It's a collective, for sure, but there are groups within that collective with very different goals.

I didn't say nor do I consider there is a problem with karate schools, my answer was specifically aimed at kickboxer who is one of those people you mention as believing karate is one entity when he says karate has evolved. As I said there's many who consider karate as such hasn't evolved but regressed. The subject of karate is a complex one where there are many different views and the one size fits all approach by kickboxer is something that many if not all karateka would disagree with. Saying that karate didn't have a belt system and now does so has moved on and is better is a naïve view. I have a foot in both camps with being involved in MMA for nearly 20 years now and being a karateka for more years than I care to mention. Most like myself feel that MMA doesn't need gradings, they are surplus to needs and we don't need them just to be accepted as a mainstream sport. A belt system won't improve MMA, and quite honestly there is no real reason to bring one in.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Take karate for example, a grading will consist of specific techniques that everyone will do to a certain standard ( hopefully!) the roundhouse kick will be the same for everyone done according to how you are taught. A block will be done the same way by all the class. There is no deviation because a shorter student finds it easier to do the technique a different way or it's more efficient for a taller person to change how they do a technique. You have to do all the techniques and drills all exactly the same.

Counterpoint - most BJJ schools don't have gradings of the sort you describe. There is no set curriculum and students are not required to do techniques the same way. We still have a belt system. (Some schools do have standardized curriculum and tests with techniques that must be done a specific way, but they are in the minority.)

Most like myself feel that MMA doesn't need gradings, they are surplus to needs and we don't need them just to be accepted as a mainstream sport. A belt system won't improve MMA, and quite honestly there is no real reason to bring one in.

In general, I agree with you. However an alternate view comes from one of the top MMA coaches in the world - Greg Jackson. His school does have a MMA belt ranking system. I don't think his professional fighters bother with it. It's more focused on students who want to train MMA as a martial art and who may or may not ever compete in the cage.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Counterpoint - most BJJ schools don't have gradings of the sort you describe. There is no set curriculum and students are not required to do techniques the same way. We still have a belt system. (Some schools do have standardized curriculum and tests with techniques that must be done a specific way, but they are in the minority.)



In general, I agree with you. However an alternate view comes from one of the top MMA coaches in the world - Greg Jackson. His school does have a MMA belt ranking system. I don't think his professional fighters bother with it. It's more focused on students who want to train MMA as a martial art and who may or may not ever compete in the cage.

I was going to say that about jiu jitsu but I couldn't be sure so I didn't want to say. But yeah that's what I thought jiu jitsu does promotions based on your improvement not looking a specific set of moves for that specific belt.

 

[Tez3]

Counterpoint - most BJJ schools don't have gradings of the sort you describe. There is no set curriculum and students are not required to do techniques the same way. We still have a belt system. (Some schools do have standardized curriculum and tests with techniques that must be done a specific way, but they are in the minority.)



In general, I agree with you. However an alternate view comes from one of the top MMA coaches in the world - Greg Jackson. His school does have a MMA belt ranking system. I don't think his professional fighters bother with it. It's more focused on students who want to train MMA as a martial art and who may or may not ever compete in the cage.

Well, it keeps the money coming in doesn't it? That's not a cynical remark btw, MMA doesn't actually pay as much as you'd think and bills have to be paid.
However the argument that because karate has belts and has 'evolved' therefore MMA should have belts is a redundant one.
I know quite a few BJJ places here if not the majority who have a set curriculum for belt tests so again kickboxer you are wrong because as Tony says some BJJ places do have them. I was however comparing MMA with boxing not BJJ for a reason.
MMA doesn't need a curriculum and belts for validation by people like kickboxer who thinks karate is just one thing. It is what it is and if people want to earn some extra cash by holding gradings then I'm not going to naysay them, just please don't think that MMA needs gradings to be considered legitimate or to become 'better'.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Well, it keeps the money coming in doesn't it? That's not a cynical remark btw, MMA doesn't actually pay as much as you'd think and bills have to be paid.
However the argument that because karate has belts and has 'evolved' therefore MMA should have belts is a redundant one.
I know quite a few BJJ places here if not the majority who have a set curriculum for belt tests so again kickboxer you are wrong because as Tony says some BJJ places do have them. I was however comparing MMA with boxing not BJJ for a reason.
MMA doesn't need a curriculum and belts for validation by people like kickboxer who thinks karate is just one thing. It is what it is and if people want to earn some extra cash by holding gradings then I'm not going to naysay them, just please don't think that MMA needs gradings to be considered legitimate or to become 'better'.

why're you talking to me your quoting him yet you're mentioning me seriously what is it with you everything thing I post you argue with even when I made a post saying karate was in the Olympics you made some comment oh do you really believe it's permanent. Every time I post I expect to see a comment from you

 

[Tez3]

My god you seem to have an obsession with me you keep talking to me even when I'm not talking to you.

Don't flatter yourself, you obviously don't know how forums work, they are discussion boards open to everyone who has joined and if you make comments in your posts that people either agree or disagree with then you will find they comment on those posts.
You made statements that I disagreed with, so I wrote refuting your assertions about karate.
The only one making this personal is you.

 

[Buka]

why're you talking to me your quoting him yet you're mentioning me seriously what is it with you everything thing I post you argue with even when I made a post saying karate was in the Olympics you made some comment oh do you really believe it's permanent. Every time I post I expect to see a comment from you

Well, you know, bro, all you really need to do is look at a world map.

(all meant in fun, of course)

 

[Tez3]

why're you talking to me your quoting him yet you're mentioning me seriously what is it with you everything thing I post you argue with even when I made a post saying karate was in the Olympics you made some comment oh do you really believe it's permanent. Every time I post I expect to see a comment from you

You really need to get over yourself, you are one poster among many, you post on here and people answer those posts myself included. I do notice that you only complain when you are disagreed with, any post I agree with you don't complain lol. Get over it.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Really, I think it depends on the instructor or coach to determine a ranking system. Take kung fu, some schools have a ranking system and some schools do not.

Eventually, some mma will adopt a ranking system as to where some do not. Me personally, I do not care for mma and it doesnt matter to me if they do or not. Most sports do not have a ranking system, so I dont see why mma should be judged on whether or not they have a ranking system.

 

[drop bear]

Really, I think it depends on the instructor or coach to determine a ranking system. Take kung fu, some schools have a ranking system and some schools do not.

Eventually, some mma will adopt a ranking system as to where some do not. Me personally, I do not care for mma and it doesnt matter to me if they do or not. Most sports do not have a ranking system, so I dont see why mma should be judged on whether or not they have a ranking system.

Some sports do though. Gymnastics for example.

Rankings have helped mainstream a lot of martial arts. And are quite often a fairly new concept.

 

[Paul_D]

Grading isn't usually about money.

My experience of Karate in the UK is that it is very much about the money.

 

[Kickboxer101]

My experience of Karate in the UK is that it is very much about the money.

Yeah have to agree there why can't they just grade in a normal class say lower belts one night higher belts next night. I know some clubs do that but most have this big test date that's usually on a random day outside of usual training hours and usually costs tripple what a normal class would

 

[drop bear]

Yeah have to agree there why can't they just grade in a normal class say lower belts one night higher belts next night. I know some clubs do that but most have this big test date that's usually on a random day outside of usual training hours and usually costs tripple what a normal class would

It has to be important otherwise what is the point?

Ritual has its merits.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, it keeps the money coming in doesn't it? That's not a cynical remark btw, MMA doesn't actually pay as much as you'd think and bills have to be paid.
However the argument that because karate has belts and has 'evolved' therefore MMA should have belts is a redundant one.
I know quite a few BJJ places here if not the majority who have a set curriculum for belt tests so again kickboxer you are wrong because as Tony says some BJJ places do have them. I was however comparing MMA with boxing not BJJ for a reason.
MMA doesn't need a curriculum and belts for validation by people like kickboxer who thinks karate is just one thing. It is what it is and if people want to earn some extra cash by holding gradings then I'm not going to naysay them, just please don't think that MMA needs gradings to be considered legitimate or to become 'better'.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to grading as a money-maker. Yes, some schools do structure it that way, but it's actually a money-loser for many instructors, given the amount of time it takes away from other activities.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My experience of Karate in the UK is that it is very much about the money.

As I've posted elsewhere, I have seen schools that made it about the money. One my instructors (Judo and Karate) actually left one of his organizations because of that practice, so I've been aware of it for a while. However, of all of the instructors I've met, worked with, trained under, and visited, the vast majority either charge nothing (losing money), charge enough to cover the cost of the belt and certificate (losing less money), or charge just enough to cover that and some of the extra time it takes them (maybe not losing money). Only a few charge enough to actually make more money than if they didn't do the grading at all.

That of course, isn't the UK. I've never been there, so I can't speak to the environment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah have to agree there why can't they just grade in a normal class say lower belts one night higher belts next night. I know some clubs do that but most have this big test date that's usually on a random day outside of usual training hours and usually costs tripple what a normal class would

I've noticed when folks post the cost of training in the UK, it seems to be lower than in the US. Maybe this is where they're making up that difference?

 

[Tez3]

Instructors who can afford not to charge for gradings are few and far between here. We don't have big chains of martial arts schools, they are mostly small clubs who train in leisure centres, village and community halls, few own or can afford a dedicated building. There's rent to pay, travel costs etc, gradings are basically the only way to make ends meet. The student fees aren't high, the 'market' wouldn't take it. I've said before it's not a bad thing charging for gradings, it's a very important way for instructors to manage. We don't have the children's after school club type martial arts classes not the children's parties. Martial arts are not a way to earn a living here. We have a handful of professional MMA fighters who mostly also work with the top layer going to live in the US.
Martial arts in the UK is quite different from what I've seen people post about in the US.