OP
OP
Kirk
Guest
Using belts to signify rank, or using belts and rank was
developed by Jigaro Kano??
Using belts to signify rank, or using belts and rank was
developed by Jigaro Kano??
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
This is one of those things that displays a major problem for martial arts in the United States, if not worldwide...
I am not criticizing anyone involved in this thread, nor any one school or association in particular - this is a general purpose rant...
Rant Begins... :soapbox:
Those of us involved in MA for reasons known only to ourselves and our Creator hold our respective arts in high esteem, valuing them and their lessons greatly. One of the things that "sold" me on my system early on was the fact that we were required to learn things about other systems. Later, I found out that we were required to know other forms of the arts included in our style (Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji) from outside of our style for promotion to senior grades...
However, knowing much about the truth behind martial arts in general, much less about the arts many people study, doesn't seem to get much attention at all...
For example -
Myths:
- All Chinese martial arts come from Shaolin.
- All karate came from Japan OR all karate is the same.
- Belt ranks have always been used in asian martial arts.
- All Korean martial arts were created in Korea and are ancient and historical in nature.
- All martial arts came from asia.
Et cetera.
Truths:
- All Chinese martial arts did not come from Shaolin, and many predate Shaolin by centuries.
- Karate did not arrive in Japan until the 1920s. Samurai did not practice karate. Karate was not practiced by farmers in Okinawa.
- Belt ranking was pioneered by the founder of Judo, Jigaro Kano, as a way to prevent heavier, more experienced judoka from outclassing smaller, less experienced judoka during competition. Colors were added later to more readily identify a person's grade. Prior to this, there were simply students and teachers (the latter identified solely by their license to teach, issued to them by their instructor, though sometimes even that was absent...) After time, colored belts were adopted by many schools and styles throughout the world as an easy way to identify different skill levels.
- Many Korean martial arts were imported in the last century to century and a half from other countries. Tae Kwon Do was originally a bastardized form of Shotokan, brought over in the early part of the 1900s (since Funakoshi didn't bring Shotokan to Japan until the 1920s, TKD couldn't have been created until after that, contrary to the popular beliefs...).
- Every country in the world has had a martial tradition of some sort, and ancient cultures had their forms of martial arts just as did the asian countries - due to the age of said ancient cultures, most forms of these ancient arts died with the cultures in question (e.g. Pankration is not an ancient Greek martial art, but rather the modern recreation of the ancient art based on research done by a man interested in such things - he was already instructor level in another art, and used that training as the framework for recreating Pankration based on what he found out about the ancient practices).
Et cetera.
People study for years under misconceptions and errors, become instructors, and propagate the myths and inaccuracies. Then, because schools of this nature are far more numerous than schools which try to maintain the "truth" of the history behind MA, the bulk of MAists begin to buy the myths as reality, and it becomes those who know the "truth" (not sure that is an accurate word, given the shady nature of MA history in the first place, but it'll have to do) that are the fringe weirdoes...
Go figure.
People everywhere rant and rave about frauds and shysters like Oom Yung Doe and the Chung Moo Quan, Temple Kung Fu, etc. But there are many schools who tread very close to the boundaries that separate legitimate schools and con artists, and they don't even know it!
Folks need to educate themselves on the histories of their styles. If they are going to use the native language terms of their style, they need to familiarize themselves with that language. They need to ask questions, and not stop until they get the right answers. Only then will we be able to re-invigorate MA overall and help to stomp out the ignorance that is out there...
I'm not ranting about an innocent beginner that simply doesn't know any better... How could they? Rather, I am pointing an accusatory finger at the instructors who know their info is lacking and don't care to better themselves (they do a disservice to their students at best by failing to better educate themselves), or who deliberately sell myths and lies in order to safeguard their meal ticket.
Rant Ends... :soapbox:
Sorry to get so picky, but attention to small things is a mark of professionalism. One saying I like to remind myself of when I get lazy is "Mastery grows from little things." If we allow ourselves to be complacent as instructors, satisfied with our knowledge, then we stop growing and begin to creep up to the edge of the abyss of our own ego. We owe it to our students to be better than that...
Gambarimasu.
:samurai: :tank: :samurai:
I am not criticizing anyone involved in this thread, nor any one school or association in particular - this is a general purpose rant...
Rant Begins... :soapbox:
Those of us involved in MA for reasons known only to ourselves and our Creator hold our respective arts in high esteem, valuing them and their lessons greatly. One of the things that "sold" me on my system early on was the fact that we were required to learn things about other systems. Later, I found out that we were required to know other forms of the arts included in our style (Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji) from outside of our style for promotion to senior grades...
However, knowing much about the truth behind martial arts in general, much less about the arts many people study, doesn't seem to get much attention at all...
For example -
Myths:
- All Chinese martial arts come from Shaolin.
- All karate came from Japan OR all karate is the same.
- Belt ranks have always been used in asian martial arts.
- All Korean martial arts were created in Korea and are ancient and historical in nature.
- All martial arts came from asia.
Et cetera.
Truths:
- All Chinese martial arts did not come from Shaolin, and many predate Shaolin by centuries.
- Karate did not arrive in Japan until the 1920s. Samurai did not practice karate. Karate was not practiced by farmers in Okinawa.
- Belt ranking was pioneered by the founder of Judo, Jigaro Kano, as a way to prevent heavier, more experienced judoka from outclassing smaller, less experienced judoka during competition. Colors were added later to more readily identify a person's grade. Prior to this, there were simply students and teachers (the latter identified solely by their license to teach, issued to them by their instructor, though sometimes even that was absent...) After time, colored belts were adopted by many schools and styles throughout the world as an easy way to identify different skill levels.
- Many Korean martial arts were imported in the last century to century and a half from other countries. Tae Kwon Do was originally a bastardized form of Shotokan, brought over in the early part of the 1900s (since Funakoshi didn't bring Shotokan to Japan until the 1920s, TKD couldn't have been created until after that, contrary to the popular beliefs...).
- Every country in the world has had a martial tradition of some sort, and ancient cultures had their forms of martial arts just as did the asian countries - due to the age of said ancient cultures, most forms of these ancient arts died with the cultures in question (e.g. Pankration is not an ancient Greek martial art, but rather the modern recreation of the ancient art based on research done by a man interested in such things - he was already instructor level in another art, and used that training as the framework for recreating Pankration based on what he found out about the ancient practices).
Et cetera.
People study for years under misconceptions and errors, become instructors, and propagate the myths and inaccuracies. Then, because schools of this nature are far more numerous than schools which try to maintain the "truth" of the history behind MA, the bulk of MAists begin to buy the myths as reality, and it becomes those who know the "truth" (not sure that is an accurate word, given the shady nature of MA history in the first place, but it'll have to do) that are the fringe weirdoes...
Go figure.
People everywhere rant and rave about frauds and shysters like Oom Yung Doe and the Chung Moo Quan, Temple Kung Fu, etc. But there are many schools who tread very close to the boundaries that separate legitimate schools and con artists, and they don't even know it!
Folks need to educate themselves on the histories of their styles. If they are going to use the native language terms of their style, they need to familiarize themselves with that language. They need to ask questions, and not stop until they get the right answers. Only then will we be able to re-invigorate MA overall and help to stomp out the ignorance that is out there...
I'm not ranting about an innocent beginner that simply doesn't know any better... How could they? Rather, I am pointing an accusatory finger at the instructors who know their info is lacking and don't care to better themselves (they do a disservice to their students at best by failing to better educate themselves), or who deliberately sell myths and lies in order to safeguard their meal ticket.
Rant Ends... :soapbox:
Sorry to get so picky, but attention to small things is a mark of professionalism. One saying I like to remind myself of when I get lazy is "Mastery grows from little things." If we allow ourselves to be complacent as instructors, satisfied with our knowledge, then we stop growing and begin to creep up to the edge of the abyss of our own ego. We owe it to our students to be better than that...
Gambarimasu.
:samurai: :tank: :samurai:
I once asked a fifth degree black belt shihan to tell what me the name of his style meant in English. He got all the words but one, and told me he'd have to check on that and get back to me. (He did.) I was surprised he didn't have some idea what the name of his style meant.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
And there you go...
Guess he isn't such a shihan after all, especially since that connotates a "master teacher."
Most folks probably wouldn't hold a Master's Degree holder from an accredited university in high esteem if he couldn't explain his field fully, now would they?
There you go...
Guess he isn't such a shihan after all, especially since that connotates a "master teacher."
Most folks probably wouldn't hold a Master's Degree holder from an accredited university in high esteem if he couldn't explain his field fully, now would they?
There you go...
Havent seen my belt system in here yet.... I'm not sure if this is a standard for WTF, but i have seen other schools that teach Ji Do Kwan use it:
White- Symbolizes innocence, the beginning of Tae Kwon Do training.
High White (with yellow tape)
Yellow- Earth, where the seed sprouts, just as the foundation of tae kwon do is being laid.
High Yellow (with green tape)
Green- Growth, as the plant is flourishing, so is the student's knowledge in Tae Kwon Do.
High Green (with blue tape)
Blue- Heaven, towards which the plant grows as it matures into a tree, symbolizing the increasing proficiency in the student's abilities.
High Blue (with red tape)
Red- Danger, as a warning that the student has black belt technique, but not black belt wisdom or knowledge.
High Red (with black tape)
Deputy Black (half black, half red)
Black- Impervious to darkness and fear. The student is born into a world of wisdom. (also heavier hits, and the really fun stuff begins
)
Degrees are symbolized by yellow bars on each end, 1 bar being 1st dan, 2 being 2nd dan, and so forth.
Before you guys start clicking reply, in no way do we claim that this structure is ancient and traditional dating back to the days of Han Dynasty. We simply use it as our belt system, explain the meanings, and leave it at that. We even acknowledge that tae kwon do incorporates movements from Japanese and chinese arts.
Either way, we still get our kicks.
:asian:
White- Symbolizes innocence, the beginning of Tae Kwon Do training.
High White (with yellow tape)
Yellow- Earth, where the seed sprouts, just as the foundation of tae kwon do is being laid.
High Yellow (with green tape)
Green- Growth, as the plant is flourishing, so is the student's knowledge in Tae Kwon Do.
High Green (with blue tape)
Blue- Heaven, towards which the plant grows as it matures into a tree, symbolizing the increasing proficiency in the student's abilities.
High Blue (with red tape)
Red- Danger, as a warning that the student has black belt technique, but not black belt wisdom or knowledge.
High Red (with black tape)
Deputy Black (half black, half red)
Black- Impervious to darkness and fear. The student is born into a world of wisdom. (also heavier hits, and the really fun stuff begins
)Degrees are symbolized by yellow bars on each end, 1 bar being 1st dan, 2 being 2nd dan, and so forth.
Before you guys start clicking reply, in no way do we claim that this structure is ancient and traditional dating back to the days of Han Dynasty. We simply use it as our belt system, explain the meanings, and leave it at that. We even acknowledge that tae kwon do incorporates movements from Japanese and chinese arts.
Either way, we still get our kicks.
:asian:
C
Chiduce
Guest
White;
Yellow;(Basic Motion Studies)
(Adv. Yellow) optional for the practitioner with some prior martial arts basic experience;
Orange (Motion Studies);
Adv. Orange (The foundation for intermediate motion studies);
Purple; (Intro to basic weapons defenses), etc;
Blue; ( Intro to basic knife defenses),etc,
Green; (Student has grasped basic street defensive abilities and can use them effectively in a violent street confrontation); Student starts his/her first thesis;
3rd Brown; (Certified Associate Instructor); Blunt object defenses; Student has grasped the ability to interact well with junior students and starts to assist the instructor in teaching; basic martial arts (yin/yang) theory; Takes private instruction in communication, teaching, and forming his/her unique style of defensive fighting; 3 thesis's;
2nd Brown; (Certified Associate Assistant Instructor); Blade weapons defenses; Intoduction to system theory (yin/yang relations); martial arts history, 3 thesis's, private instruction, putting the pieces together in upper body motion in defensive fighting;
1st Brown; (Certified Assistant Instructor); Projectile weapons defenses; Completing the puzzle of defensive upper and lower body motion in street fighting; 3 thesis's; system theory (upper & lower body applications); teaching the class, instructing privately, etc,.
1st Black (Shodan, Certified Instructor) Defensive system development, application and theory within the practitioner's fighting style/s!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
Yellow;(Basic Motion Studies)
(Adv. Yellow) optional for the practitioner with some prior martial arts basic experience;
Orange (Motion Studies);
Adv. Orange (The foundation for intermediate motion studies);
Purple; (Intro to basic weapons defenses), etc;
Blue; ( Intro to basic knife defenses),etc,
Green; (Student has grasped basic street defensive abilities and can use them effectively in a violent street confrontation); Student starts his/her first thesis;
3rd Brown; (Certified Associate Instructor); Blunt object defenses; Student has grasped the ability to interact well with junior students and starts to assist the instructor in teaching; basic martial arts (yin/yang) theory; Takes private instruction in communication, teaching, and forming his/her unique style of defensive fighting; 3 thesis's;
2nd Brown; (Certified Associate Assistant Instructor); Blade weapons defenses; Intoduction to system theory (yin/yang relations); martial arts history, 3 thesis's, private instruction, putting the pieces together in upper body motion in defensive fighting;
1st Brown; (Certified Assistant Instructor); Projectile weapons defenses; Completing the puzzle of defensive upper and lower body motion in street fighting; 3 thesis's; system theory (upper & lower body applications); teaching the class, instructing privately, etc,.
1st Black (Shodan, Certified Instructor) Defensive system development, application and theory within the practitioner's fighting style/s!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
Oops, I didn't realize you had quoted my post and were asking me about it.
Well, the whole thing is still relatively new. We started classes back in the fall semester, so our club still hasn't had a birthday yet. 
At the moment, there is only one class so everyone takes the same class regardless of when they started. Perhaps things will be changed a little later on, but right now the main difference comes in what you're allowed to learn. Our teacher separates us into different groups to learn different forms. Those of us who started back in the fall at the beginning know more forms and more advanced forms than the people who started say in the spring. Our teacher also has some of us older students helping to teach the newer students one of the basic level forms. This way he doesn't have to spend the time doing it himself which would decrease the amount of time he could spend teaching new moves in new forms with the class. By having the older students teach the newer ones, it saves our teacher some time and all he really has to do is corrections, not full instruction. I'd guess progress can be gauged by things like that, if he has you helping teach others, and the forms you've learned. We have a sort of long term syllabus, so we have an idea of what level different forms are at. By tracking which ones we're learning, we have an idea of how far we've progressed. Well, quantity-wise at least. Quality-wise is a bit harder to judge without some sort of test, I suppose.We did have one exam so far, in order to see if we could learn the intermediate level forms. After we learned two basic forms, one in the fall and one in the winter, we were tested on them about one month into the spring semester (we were starting to learn other new forms before then). Our teacher brought in two guests, another student of his master and a friend who was a two time world TKD champion to help him judge us. The three of them watched us do the two basic forms we had learned, judged us somehow (we never got real results or scores and only general, limited feedback), and everyone who passed was allowed to learn a higher level form. This actually meant we were allowed to learn two forms at once since we had started a different form before the exam took place. I wouldn't be surprised if we do have some more of these in the future, one, for people who didn't take or pass the exam the first time, but also for others to show they're ready to progress into higher levels.
If I had to tell another instructor of the same style how far I had gotten with my current teacher, I'd probably just list all the forms and things I was taught. It would be a lot because we're moving fast in this class, but the new teacher would know I had been taught and exposed to say four barehand forms and one weapon form (at the moment). I may not do them all especially well, but I will know how they work. He/She could then test me on those forms and things to see how well I performed them before deciding exactly how to start teaching me. Knowing what I've been taught before and seeing how well I can perform some of it should be enough information for a new teacher to decide where to resume my training.
I hope this answers your questions. I try to give the best answers I can with the information I have.
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
Kiddies,
TKD follows ITF ranks already posted. In my Judo it's White, Yellow, Green, 1st Brown, 2nd Brown, 3rd Brown, Black. In CHKD it's...um..white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red, black/red stripe, black/white stripe, black.
TKD follows ITF ranks already posted. In my Judo it's White, Yellow, Green, 1st Brown, 2nd Brown, 3rd Brown, Black. In CHKD it's...um..white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red, black/red stripe, black/white stripe, black.
cdhall
Master Black Belt
Everything I once knew about Belt Ranks I put on my website a few years ago here
http://www.cdouglashall.com/belts.html
But Mr. Parker outlined his belt ranking system in "Infinite Insights into Kenpo Volume 1" (I think, I don't have my notes and I apologize). Mr. Parker developed this belt ranking structure for his 24 technique system with additional titles for the Black Belt Degrees as noted:
White Belt
Yellow Belt
Orange Belt
Purple Belt
Blue Belt
Green Belt
3rd Degree Brown
2nd Degree Brown
1st Degree Brown
1st Degree Black Belt-Junior Instructor
2nd-Associate Instructor
3rd- Head Instructor
4th- Senior Instructor
5th- Associate Professor
6th- Professor
7th- Senior Professor
8th- Associate Master
9th- Master
10th- Grand Master
At 3rd Black you had learned all the prescribed material and promotions to 4th and beyond were not made based on what new thing you had learned, but presumably upon your increased proficiency and/or contribution to the art.
Mr. C would be a good person to make a knowledgeable comment about this.
I hope this information proves useful.
:asian:
G
GouRonin
Guest
If he borrowed the belt ranks from swimming...why were kids swimming with belts on?
We don't really have belts in Kung Fu, but for testing purposes, and to seperate the classes, we have this structure, based on forms, endurance, and basic grasping of the system.
White Level
Gold Level
Green Level
Blue Level
Red 1 Level
Red 2 Level
Brown 1 Level
Brown 2 Level
Black 1 Level
Black 2 Level
I guess after that you get to learn "real" kung fu
White Level
Gold Level
Green Level
Blue Level
Red 1 Level
Red 2 Level
Brown 1 Level
Brown 2 Level
Black 1 Level
Black 2 Level
I guess after that you get to learn "real" kung fu
W
Wertle
Guest
we go
white
yellow
green
3rd brown
2nd brown
1st brown
1st black
2nd black, and so on
I'm convinced they made brown go 3 to 1 and then black 1 up for the sole purpose of confusing me ^_^
As far as black belts, titles are awarded separately than rank.
white
yellow
green
3rd brown
2nd brown
1st brown
1st black
2nd black, and so on
I'm convinced they made brown go 3 to 1 and then black 1 up for the sole purpose of confusing me ^_^
As far as black belts, titles are awarded separately than rank.
the parker belt system, (white yellow orange purple blue green brown3 brown2 brown1 black1-10) was already posted, but I'm curious about schools and uniforms and rank...
some kenpo schools allow students to wear black uniforms from day one. my first school allowed students to wear black uniforms after purple belt. My friends' school allows black uniforms at brown belt level. some schools don't allow colored uniforms except for competition before a black belt rank, and don't allow mixing a black and a white uniform (black pants, white top) before black belt level.
What do your schools do with regards to this?
some kenpo schools allow students to wear black uniforms from day one. my first school allowed students to wear black uniforms after purple belt. My friends' school allows black uniforms at brown belt level. some schools don't allow colored uniforms except for competition before a black belt rank, and don't allow mixing a black and a white uniform (black pants, white top) before black belt level.
What do your schools do with regards to this?
OP
OP
Kirk
Guest
All black at my school, from day 1. Even in the kid's classes.
W
Wertle
Guest
We wear primarily black uniforms. I think the reason for this extends back from when my soke was much younger and teaching at a college, there was a shady karate group that went around picking fights and causing trouble. They wore white uniforms, and my soke at the time had his class wear black ones, to distinguish their group from the trouble makers. It just stuck as a tradition, I guess.
Some people do wear white uniforms, or a combination of white and black (black top, white pants, etc.), but it's primarily black. Except on the fourth of july, when my soke wears his snazzy patriotic gi, just for fun ^_^.
Some people do wear white uniforms, or a combination of white and black (black top, white pants, etc.), but it's primarily black. Except on the fourth of july, when my soke wears his snazzy patriotic gi, just for fun ^_^.
M
Master of Blades
Guest
White
Yellow
Green
Blue
Red
Black
Black 1st
Black 2nd
Black 3rd
.........................And so on.
Yellow
Green
Blue
Red
Black
Black 1st
Black 2nd
Black 3rd
.........................And so on.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
We wear black Chinese style uniforms and the apporpriate sash for tests, special events, demos, competitions, etc.
For normal training, black Japanese style uniforms are worn (although Chinese style can be worn, too) along with Japanese style belts (which correspond to the sash color the student has been graded at). This is a recent "official" change that came about after a good amount of discussion.
When I first started in Yiliquan in 1985 or 86 (I can't remember anymore), we only wore Chinese style uniforms. Back then, the best we could get were the $19.95 super thin cotton ones. After a while, we found Tiger Claw, and started getting uniforms from them - good quality, decent price. At one point, though, the Chinese style were hard to get as they were often sold out in the more common sizes. As a stop-gap, we started allowing Japanese style karate uniforms in place of the Chinese ones. We have always had a sash system (as mentioned upthread quite a ways), and there was no change to that when we first allowed the Japanese uniforms as an optional wear item...
The uniform colors at first were all black. That was due mainly to the fact that Chinese style uniforms only came in black. It was really rare to find one in any other color (although we did have one instructor that found a white one, but she ended up dying it purple... whatever). Just the "traditional" kung fu movie uniform - Black with white buttons, cuffs and collar. The Tiger Claw ones were either all black, or "kung fu movie style."
When the Japanese style uniforms were allowed as optional wear, color became unimportant. The fact that a student had a training uniform was far more important than what color it was, and eventually there was some mixing and matching of white/black tops with black/white pants (due to the student wearing whatever was clean!).
Now, we have standardized our uniforms quite a bit. As stated above, black Chinese or Japanese style uniform, with the appropriate sash or belt as received from grading examinations. Only one patch is worn, the headquarters patch of the International Yiliquan Association. Sometimes instructors wear a tab on their sleeve indicating their status (you know the patch - the big rectangular patch with gold letters and border with the word "INSTRUCTOR" in the middle), but that is at their discretion. I used to wear one, but have stopped doing so in the last few years...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
For normal training, black Japanese style uniforms are worn (although Chinese style can be worn, too) along with Japanese style belts (which correspond to the sash color the student has been graded at). This is a recent "official" change that came about after a good amount of discussion.
When I first started in Yiliquan in 1985 or 86 (I can't remember anymore), we only wore Chinese style uniforms. Back then, the best we could get were the $19.95 super thin cotton ones. After a while, we found Tiger Claw, and started getting uniforms from them - good quality, decent price. At one point, though, the Chinese style were hard to get as they were often sold out in the more common sizes. As a stop-gap, we started allowing Japanese style karate uniforms in place of the Chinese ones. We have always had a sash system (as mentioned upthread quite a ways), and there was no change to that when we first allowed the Japanese uniforms as an optional wear item...
The uniform colors at first were all black. That was due mainly to the fact that Chinese style uniforms only came in black. It was really rare to find one in any other color (although we did have one instructor that found a white one, but she ended up dying it purple... whatever). Just the "traditional" kung fu movie uniform - Black with white buttons, cuffs and collar. The Tiger Claw ones were either all black, or "kung fu movie style."
When the Japanese style uniforms were allowed as optional wear, color became unimportant. The fact that a student had a training uniform was far more important than what color it was, and eventually there was some mixing and matching of white/black tops with black/white pants (due to the student wearing whatever was clean!).
Now, we have standardized our uniforms quite a bit. As stated above, black Chinese or Japanese style uniform, with the appropriate sash or belt as received from grading examinations. Only one patch is worn, the headquarters patch of the International Yiliquan Association. Sometimes instructors wear a tab on their sleeve indicating their status (you know the patch - the big rectangular patch with gold letters and border with the word "INSTRUCTOR" in the middle), but that is at their discretion. I used to wear one, but have stopped doing so in the last few years...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
