Time in each rank

[masherdong]

Hard to say why you were held at one rank. The best way to find out is simply to ask him. It could be that there were certain things in your execution that he wanted to see sorted out? Or perhaps with newer students he is moving them along faster in order to keep them happy?

Anything that is answered here in that regard is just speculation.

I do believe that a student should not be promoted until they have shown that they have a solid handle on their current material. It only hurts the student in the long run.

Daniel

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

 

[Steve]

I think, where there's rank, it should apply a somewhat independent standard. One major reason I left my old school was rank and promotion. BJJ does it right, IMO. It's not about curriculum as much as it's about skills and ability. In other words, there are fundamentals taught to everyone because it's important. Beyond that, BJJ adapts to you.

You're promoted based upon your ability to apply what you've learned. As a general rule of thumb, black belts control browns, who control purples, who control blues who control white belts. That doesn't mean I don't get tapped by white belts. It simply means that, as a general rule, I'm the one controlling the rolls. I usually choose to put myself in weaker positions or not, risking being submitted.

Usually, there is no testing and are no testing fees, although I know of both in schools both in the USA and in Brazil. When your instructor feels like you're ready, fwoop... you're promoted.

 

[Steve]

I'll just add as an aside that I really like what Roy Dean does at his BJJ school. He's a black belt in Aikido and BJJ (and I think Judo, as well). He gives all of his students the opportunity to perform in a promotion demonstration that is pretty darned cool.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

This may sound like a stupid question on my part, but just to clarify; do you mean moving too quickly through ranks or physically moving too rapidly when performing forms and technique?

Daniel

 

[Dave Leverich]

Steve, ditto on Roy Dean. I also love his blend of Judo & BJJ (and apparently Aikido hehe). His promotion demonstrations are great (a few on Youtube).

My blue was a 'class, I have an announcement, hand belt/form for IBJJF thingy' big hug, now you're a target let's roll. Btw, I really like/agree with your statement on blues generally controlling whites, purples controlling blues etc etc.

Personally I'd love if the rest of the TMA's could 'roll back' the belts in line with what BJJ has (IE my blue was about 1000 hours on the mat, 2 years). Where a black belt was 'ZOMG a black belt!'. But, like Pandora's Box and Obamanomics...

 

[Blindside]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

Is it only this one student, or is this occuring with the rest of the school as a whole?

 

[Xinglu]

I hate, nay despise the idea of an average time being given out. Each rank should be earned by mastery and application of each technique. Period.

If that means a student blows through the ranks, so be it. If it means a student takes years to climb from one rank to the next, so be it. Each person is unique and should not be awarded a belt because they have the time in and can do the form well. What about the applications of the forms, can they show them all with mastery against a resisting opponent? How are they in sparing have they improved, are they applying their new knowledge there? What about there attitude? Are they impatient? Content? humble? dedicated? How do they interact with the other students? Do they have a chip on their shoulder or do they actively help lesser grades improve?

There are the tangible requirements and the non-tangible requirements and IMO the latter is more important. Should you care about rank no. Should you care about how fast your classmates advance? No. Jealousy has no place in the training hall.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

I hate, nay despise the idea of an average time being given out. Each rank should be earned by mastery and application of each technique. Period.

If that means a student blows through the ranks, so be it. If it means a student takes years to climb from one rank to the next, so be it. Each person is unique and should not be awarded a belt because they have the time in and can do the form well. What about the applications of the forms, can they show them all with mastery against a resisting opponent? How are they in sparing have they improved, are they applying their new knowledge there? What about there attitude? Are they impatient? Content? humble? dedicated? How do they interact with the other students? Do they have a chip on their shoulder or do they actively help lesser grades improve?

There are the tangible requirements and the non-tangible requirements and IMO the latter is more important. Should you care about rank no. Should you care about how fast your classmates advance? No. Jealousy has no place in the training hall.

this was covered a couple of months ago here.

I concur with Mr. X, time will tell, and skill level will make it happen.

(don't rush to get a black belt/black or red sash, take your time, so you can get down the basics!It is a "Learning" process!)

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hello,

I dont know if this has been asked before or not. I did a search and couldnt find a thread on this.

My question is, how long should a student stay at each rank?
We have white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, 1st brown, and black.

Is it bad to hold a student back if they already know their requirements for each ranking? My instructor held me at blue for over a year, even though I had all my requirements for green. Now, it seems he is now moving people up faster and not holding them back like he did me. Whatever happened to be humble at each rank and not rushing? So, I just want to see what are the time frames that you guys have for each ranking. Or, should I even care?

Thanks in advance.

I was a Blue belt for a very long time.

I even trained people for their Brown Belts as a Blue Belt.

But I did not question why I was not asked to test. Something was not there so I kept training and training and working and listening and doing what I was asked to do, and wow, now I teach Seminars, and people look to me for infomration on the art I teach.

Also the time frame per art will vary, but I have almost always seen time frames associated with the word Minimum, not Maximum.

 

[suicide]

it took me almost 2 years to go from white to orange i just couldnt find myself but after that something clicked and shiznit just started making sense to me - and i started moving through belts hella of faster with more understanding i just got hungry for the knowledge ...

 

[masherdong]

This may sound like a stupid question on my part, but just to clarify; do you mean moving too quickly through ranks or physically moving too rapidly when performing forms and technique?

Daniel

Moving fast between ranks.

 

[masherdong]

Is it only this one student, or is this occuring with the rest of the school as a whole?

Mostly with this one student. But, I am now slowly seeing him do it to the whole school now.

 

[mwd0818]

Rather than rehash any previously made points, I will simply add this to the mix (many of my beliefs echo statements already made).

Rank only has the significance that is assigned to it. It is assigned by the student, the instructor, the organization, etc. While there are some perceived notions about the "black belt" from the outside world, I have been part of dojos and organizations that view the rank anywhere on a large spectrum, with the extremes being:

1) Someone who has spent a year or two learning the basics and is ready to learn the REAL system and art
2) Someone who has mastered the art and can easily and effectively teach it and share (10-15+ years!)

One can debate the value of either, or the views in between (of which most schools would fall into and there is obviously a wide range). However, it is important that the integrity of the rank be maintained within that dojo or group. If I say Black Belt equates to general mastery of the art, a student should understandably be upset when someone else is promoted to that rank who obviously does not possess the skill that he has been working toward. If i define it purely based on time in rank and/or mat time, then I have set the expectation that X-number of hours = X-rank, and when you reach that milestone, you'll want the belt, and, you'll be upset if you don't get it when you reach those hours OR if someone else gets the rank BEFORE they meet those requirements.

Whatever the requirements are, they are right for that group, but must be held to. Rank is a human construct and completely arbitrary - the individuals provide the meaning to the rank, but once you violate that meaning as an instructor or organization, you should expect dissent and complaint.

I have left schools or organizations over rank, even though rank itself was not the reason I trained. It was a catalyst and a symptom of other problems with the organization, and it was definitely a contributing "final straw." The main reason? Rank had been established and requirements expressed, but those were changed for commercial reasons and became inconsistent. Again, it was the inconsistency that prompted the dissent. If you change your policies, that's fine, but we had all better change together.

 

[Josh Oakley]

His only response to that was that I was moving waaay to fast so he had no choice but to hold me back. He said that my form and techniques were done very well. No other answer but to say that I was moving too quickly. Now, same thing is going on with another student and he tells me that he cant slow him down any. Go figure.

So what?

 

[alphacat]

Would you mind explaining to me please what the requirements for advancing to the next rank are?

I understand that holding long enough the current rank and attending classes during this period of time are part of the requirements for advancing to the next rank, but once these two are fulfilled, what is next?
Are you to fight another trainee in front of the instructor for him to test your skills?

By the way,
I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Thanks guys.

Could anyone help me with this question please? :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Would you mind explaining to me please what the requirements for advancing to the next rank are?

I understand that holding long enough the current rank and attending classes during this period of time are part of the requirements for advancing to the next rank, but once these two are fulfilled, what is next?
Are you to fight another trainee in front of the instructor for him to test your skills?

Usually, it is a general level of proficiency in a specific selection of skills. For example, a karate school could require you to be able to perform certain kicks, certain forms, and certain types of kumite for different ranks.

Also, different styles may have greater or fewer ranks than others. Taekwondo traditionally has ten keup grades. Kendo traditionally has only six testable kyu grades. Some styles even have a rank between first kyu and first dan. And then there are TKD Poom grades that are essentially junior dan grades for kids under fifteen.

I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Thanks guys.

Most likely. Different styles have different ranking methods and different means of displaying their rank.

Some styles do not display it at all, and on shorts, a belt for a traditional gi would look rather silly. In kendo, we do not wear belts. In tai chi, belts are not traditionally worn, but I know that there are schools that do use them, or use different colored sashes in the same manner as belts.

Keep in mind that the belt is not the rank, but a means of displaying it. I hold a third dan in the KKF, but my belts sit on a shelf in my room.

On the other hand, I hold a first dan in the KKW and I wear it to class because it the uniform is designed to be worn with it. Same goes for hapkido (though I am still a mudanja in that).

As far as Muay Thai, I do not know if they even use the kyu/dan system or equivalent. I know in boxing and fencing, one is rated by their fight record.

Hope that helps!

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

After two and a half years of Aikido (regular 4 hours per week), I am proud to wear my white belt. I may get to a black belt in another five or six years, if I keep progressing. Time doesn't faze me. However, I know that when I do gain my BB I will be a good aikidoka!

Masherdong,

The rank thing has always been interesting to me.

Koichi Tohei recieved his 7th Dan with only 2 years of training and was promoted to 10th Dan with less than 5 years of training. Why? Who knows, maybe O'Sensei liked him.

Jeff Speakman was obviously cross ranked from Goju to EPAK. He was given 4th Degree by Mr Parker after only 4 years in the system.

Joe Lewis got his black belt after only 9 months of training.

It took me 10 years to get my black belt. that's six years at 4x per week and 4 years pretty much full time. I've seen people in a recent studio that I trained at go from white to black in 2 years, but it's no skin off of my nose. After all, I know what I know.

This rank thing can lead to animosity. When someone starts after you and they are a higher rank than you it can feel disappointing, sometimes humiliating but try not to let it. In the arts we practise there will be no end to rank. Even if you reach highest echelons, then you will be effected by rank from the other end. You will have students whining, complaining and leaving because of the colour of rope around their waist. Concentrate on training and being the best you can be and it will come.

I noticed that you already have a black belt, so why all the fuss?

 

[Blindside]

By the way,
I’m taking Muay Thai lessons in my gym, and I never saw anyone wearing a belt on his shorts.
Is this whole ranking issue different in Muay Thai?

Yes, it is completely different.

Culturewise the belt systems of the Korean and Japanese systems are derived from Judo's use of the color of the obi (belt) as a designation of training, mostly as a differentiation of the novice from the proficient. It has been adopted by some Chinese systems in the form of different colored belts or tassles or similarly in some Thai schools of Krabi Krabong.

Also, some schools have ranking systems but do not show any outward display of the individual's level.

 

[K-man]

That is quite a formidable collection of martial applications and qualifications you have indexed in your signature sir.. I think your resume must be very very impressive indeed.

If I were your instructor I would grant you your next rank quite as soon as I possibly could and keep you a happy student.

Commendations, Jenna xo

Jenna, I fear you are misbehaving again! You will have to go stand in the corner. :rofl:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Rather than rehash any previously made points, I will simply add this to the mix (many of my beliefs echo statements already made).

Rank only has the significance that is assigned to it. It is assigned by the student, the instructor, the organization, etc. While there are some perceived notions about the "black belt" from the outside world, I have been part of dojos and organizations that view the rank anywhere on a large spectrum, with the extremes being:

1) Someone who has spent a year or two learning the basics and is ready to learn the REAL system and art
2) Someone who has mastered the art and can easily and effectively teach it and share (10-15+ years!)

One can debate the value of either, or the views in between (of which most schools would fall into and there is obviously a wide range). However, it is important that the integrity of the rank be maintained within that dojo or group. If I say Black Belt equates to general mastery of the art, a student should understandably be upset when someone else is promoted to that rank who obviously does not possess the skill that he has been working toward. If i define it purely based on time in rank and/or mat time, then I have set the expectation that X-number of hours = X-rank, and when you reach that milestone, you'll want the belt, and, you'll be upset if you don't get it when you reach those hours OR if someone else gets the rank BEFORE they meet those requirements.

Whatever the requirements are, they are right for that group, but must be held to. Rank is a human construct and completely arbitrary - the individuals provide the meaning to the rank, but once you violate that meaning as an instructor or organization, you should expect dissent and complaint.

I have left schools or organizations over rank, even though rank itself was not the reason I trained. It was a catalyst and a symptom of other problems with the organization, and it was definitely a contributing "final straw." The main reason? Rank had been established and requirements expressed, but those were changed for commercial reasons and became inconsistent. Again, it was the inconsistency that prompted the dissent. If you change your policies, that's fine, but we had all better change together.

some very good points there. I think it is very important to understand what a specific school deem a black belt to be. The average joe on the street has a very unrealistic view of what a black belt means. I remember when I got my black belt and my mates would say "geez , I wouldnt mess with you" , and this made no sense to me. My club does not make it easy to get a black belt and it does take time but they view black belt as a time when the really hard training can begin. Dont get me wrong , we train hard as a coloured belt and it is no mean feat to get a black belt but its certainly not the be all and end all. My instructor (6th dan 35 years of training) sees a black belt as a beginner ready to start the journey through the dans. Other clubs/styles see black belt as the holy grail . For these reasons its hard to say what the 'correct' amount of time for each belt is , or how long it should take to get to black. It really comes down to what a club perceives a black belt to be.