Belt fees/Promotion fees

[JR 137]

The dojo I train at charges $50, give or take $5-$10 for color belt tests. Even though there's minimum time is grade requirements, we don't typically test until much later. The first few are every 4 months or so, then go to 6 months, then a year. We go white-blue-yellow-green-brown, with an "advanced" rank in between them all. My CI usually skips the advanced white belt test and goes right to blue, as there's not much material in white-advanced white. So we have a total of 8 colored belt tests. They're all done in-house by our CI during regular class times.

One could make the argument of it's just added fees, but we're so cheap to train at and promotions aren't very often, so it's not really a cash grab at all. I'm pretty sure our honbu (headquarters dojo) has a fee for the certificates, and the cost of the belt itself.

Dan testing gets pretty expensive; I've heard a few hundred dollars. Dan testing is done by my CI's teacher (our organization's founder). It is done over 4 or 5 nights and a full day on a Sunday. These are off-hours times. And before calling it a cash grab, the honbu is a few doors down from the Flatiron building in Manhattan. Rent is sky-high. And there's years between dan promotions. My CI doesn't get any money from this, as it's paid directly to Honbu. And I'm one of 5 regularly training colored belts, so my CI's not getting rich from testing fees.

I factor the costs of tests and tuition into what I pay for karate. Adding up tuition and 2-3 colored belt test fees per year, and I'm still paying less than half of what everyone else in the area is paying. If I paid $500 for black belt tests every few years (its not $500) and my current tuition, and it's still much less than anyone else pays near me.

At the end of the day, people get too cynical about paying for things. Forget about how much it costs, and focus on if it's worth it. If so (and you can afford it), don't get caught up in dollar amounts. If it's not worth it, you're probably training at the wrong place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see the reason but I just don't agree with it. If I go to a university, I don't pay extra for the "instructor's time" when it's exam time. That's just part of the tuition that I'm paying.

That's because the instructor is paid for that during the whole year. If only some of the professors did exams, and only when each individual student was ready for them, they might have an "examination fee" showing on your tuition and fees list. You'd probably pay it up front with the rest of your fees, but it would be part of the deal.

In fact, you do pay them for that time now, they simply build it into the overall cost of tuition, rather than as a line-item.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, all schools have to operate with a business mentality to stay open. Expenses in a business are generally quite high, so money needs to come in.

What's sad is when business start using shady practices or misleading people. These are short term thinkers though, long term business success means keeping customers happy and delivering a high quality service with good customer service.

Almost all, anyway. I do know a couple of programs that are not self-supporting. The instructors have good professions that pay their personal bills and support the school. I think it's a shame they have to do that, since they are the ones teaching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You might be right, about 4 stripes being the number of stripes between all belts. I do know that you get 4 stripes on your white belt before you get a blue belt and I thought that maybe you had to get more stripes on higher belts but it might be 4 stripes for all the belts. When you get a stripe, at the end of class the instructor will call you over and put a stripe on your belt. I did once observe a student going ip a belt. If you're going up a belt the instructor will take off your old belt and tie the new belt around your waist so there is a bit more of a formality with that. I've never seen a student skip stripes and from what I know at least where I train you have to have a stripe for 4 months before you can get another one so I don't think there would be any stripe skipping, but I haven't been there all that long yet.

I always intended some formality in promotions, like when I was a student, but somehow I lost that for the first belt. I've gotten into the habit of sneaking their belt into a demonstration and starting a strangle with it. A sneaky, surprise promotion. I think I'll keep that for their first promotion, and let the others be formal.

 

[kuniggety]

In fact, you do pay them for that time now, they simply build it into the overall cost of tuition, rather than as a line-item.

I realize this. The model just makes more sense as it's straight forward instead of nickel and diming people at every corner.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I realize this. The model just makes more sense as it's straight forward instead of nickel and diming people at every corner.

I prefer the straightforward per-month model, as well. It does penalize those who stay longer at a given rank (like me), but I still prefer it. I just want to pay the same every time, and keep my eyes on training. It also means I never have to delay testing because I can't afford the fee that month.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Anyways, just to throw some background into this for anyone who cares. Part of what lead to schools pulling things like testing fees out of tuition as a separate charge has to do with the way billing companies operate. Generally the company would take over handling billing and all the work that goes into that for a school and charge a percentage as payment. Kept the school from having to call you if you missed a payment, tracking down delinquent accounts, etc.

Of course having a 3rd party take a cut off everything you bring in is no fun for a business, but a testing fee is paid strait to the school, so no cut going to billing. So the school would want to make sure monthly billing was done through a billing company as doing it in house is a huge pain, but any "extras" that are paid direct to the school don't have a cut taken off before the school even sees them.

That would make sense although at least from what I've seen, where I train promotions aren't done on a monthly basis and promotion tests aren't that expensive. Promotion tests are only held every three or four months and not every student in the school signs up and takes promotion tests when they're held. The test for yellow belt, the first belt after white, is only $5. Even the first degree black belt test is only $55 and so a school will not make that much additional income from promotion tests. Basically you're just paying for the extra time and skill that's required to run a test if you take the test. An extra $100 every three or four months will not be all that much compared to the total income the school makes.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If a promotions are based on special testing events which require extra time and work from the instructor outside of regular class time, then I have no problem with the instructor charging a reasonable fee to cover that time and work. Some schools apparently take it far beyond that level of compensation.)

Personally, I like a model where promotions are based on consistent daily performance in class over a long time. I do understand the idea of wanting to see how the student performs under extra pressure, but I also like the idea that regular class should include that sort of extra pressure on at least a semi-regular basis.

If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If a promotions are based on special testing events which require extra time and work from the instructor outside of regular class time, then I have no problem with the instructor charging a reasonable fee to cover that time and work. Some schools apparently take it far beyond that level of compensation.)

Personally, I like a model where promotions are based on consistent daily performance in class over a long time. I do understand the idea of wanting to see how the student performs under extra pressure, but I also like the idea that regular class should include that sort of extra pressure on at least a semi-regular basis.

If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.

I agree with your thoughts on how promotions should work. I still use tests, for a few reasons. Firstly, I want to make sure they actually remember the curriculum to that point (this is important in a style that uses a continuous curriculum, like NGA). Next, it gives me a chance to look for systemic problems that might not show up from one class to the next - are they making the same improper weight shift in several places? It also allows me to dig into things we don't cover often, but which I need to make sure they know and can do before they progress. These are bits we touch on, and which I expect them to incorporate by a certain point, but which might not be called upon for a few weeks, so I test them. As they move up, another component is added to testing: I remove lower ranks from the "attackers", so they can respond more fully.

As I type all of that, I realize that (except for some additional knowledge testing for black belt and instructors) what I'm actually doing is taking a few minutes during a class to make sure I've seen everything I need to see. I tell them it's a test so it adds a little stress to it, but that's a minor point. I could just walk up and ask them to show me whatever techniques I haven't seen from them lately and would get the same basic results. The test just makes it systematic.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In IRT there are no testing fee's ever. You advance in rank based on your skill set and that is it!

 

[TSDTexan]

FYI - the standard in BJJ is 4 stripes in-between belts all the way up to black. In most schools, stripes are awarded on a more informal basis than belts, just as a reminder that the instructor has noticed you are progressing. Most schools don't have detailed requirements for stripes. It's not uncommon for a student to skip stripes (say, jump from 1 stripes to 3 stripes or from 2 stripes to the next belt). Some schools don't even use them at all. There are schools which have formal requirements (in terms of time in grade or demonstration of specific techniques), but they are in the minority.

Yes, that's the public view... but the elite bjj players know the real belt ranking...

 

[PhotonGuy]

If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.

At my Karate school the fees for promotion tests aren't that much but whether or not you pass you don't get the money back. Even a student on a budget could probably squeeze out some extra dollars every three or four months although it does become more expensive when you test for higher ranks. I've seen some schools where the testing fees are ridiculous, for instance $500 to test for a black belt which if you fail you get it back. Consequently some of the instructors in such schools might pass students even when they perform terribly on the test just so they can keep the money.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?

And how many ranks in your school/system?

I cannot speak to every school within the IKSDA, but the senior most schools have never charged for either belt or exam fees. We don't believe in charging for either.

Currently, within the IKSDA, we go up to 9th Dan. There is only one 9th Dan so the highest a member could likely achieve is 8th Dan. Currently their is discussion on promoting me to 10th which would open up the 9th Dan level for one or more of the senior members when it is time.

 

[JR 137]

At my Karate school the fees for promotion tests aren't that much but whether or not you pass you don't get the money back. Even a student on a budget could probably squeeze out some extra dollars every three or four months although it does become more expensive when you test for higher ranks. I've seen some schools where the testing fees are ridiculous, for instance $500 to test for a black belt which if you fail you get it back. Consequently some of the instructors in such schools might pass students even when they perform terribly on the test just so they can keep the money.

Different schools have different protocol when a student fails. I haven't heard of the money being returned; the only thing I've heard is the student retests for free.

Edit: I just remembered a conversation with my former sensei. In the first organization he studied in, everyone failed their 1st dan test the first time they took it. It didn't matter how good the student did. It was never told to the students testing until they were around 3rd dan or so. The head of the organization said it was part of the test - to see how well they handled failing a huge test for them. They'd re-test 6-12 months later. Testing fees weren't returned and they'd have to pay again to re-test. And it was $200 back in the late 70s-early 80s. The head of the organization did all dan testing himself and kept all the money, yet he required all 2nd dans and up to assist.

For various reasons, he left that organization. The final straw was when he realized what was going on; it was his first batch of black belt students testing. In his words "it was all greed, and nothing more."

 

[Buka]

I used to charge them the cost of the belt (five bucks) but didn't charge anything to higher ranks.

But I've matured. From now on, Black Belt is fifty thousand dollars, cash. No exceptions.

(but I'll cut forum members a deal, thirty percent off)

 

[PhotonGuy]

Different schools have different protocol when a student fails. I haven't heard of the money being returned; the only thing I've heard is the student retests for free.

Edit: I just remembered a conversation with my former sensei. In the first organization he studied in, everyone failed their 1st dan test the first time they took it. It didn't matter how good the student did. It was never told to the students testing until they were around 3rd dan or so. The head of the organization said it was part of the test - to see how well they handled failing a huge test for them. They'd re-test 6-12 months later. Testing fees weren't returned and they'd have to pay again to re-test. And it was $200 back in the late 70s-early 80s. The head of the organization did all dan testing himself and kept all the money, yet he required all 2nd dans and up to assist.

For various reasons, he left that organization. The final straw was when he realized what was going on; it was his first batch of black belt students testing. In his words "it was all greed, and nothing more."

I would think students would notice a pattern after awhile. They would notice that everybody who tests for first dan fails their first time and so they would realize that something must be up, or that one of the requirements for passing is to fail the first time.

 

[JR 137]

I would think students would notice a pattern after awhile. They would notice that everybody who tests for first dan fails their first time and so they would realize that something must be up, or that one of the requirements for passing is to fail the first time.

I agree. However, there's always a reason to fail someone. Especially when it comes to brown belts sparring with higher ranking black belts, and even more so when they're going 20 rounds with a fresh black belt every round, bare knuckle. Add to that that back then, you didn't ask questions; the head of the organization said and did what he did, and that was that. Questioning him was not tolerated.

That organization went from almost 2,000 students in about 20 independently owned dojos to about 30 students in one dojo. And he doesn't have the fail all first timers policy any more.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree. However, there's always a reason to fail someone. Especially when it comes to brown belts sparring with higher ranking black belts, and even more so when they're going 20 rounds with a fresh black belt every round, bare knuckle. Add to that that back then, you didn't ask questions; the head of the organization said and did what he did, and that was that. Questioning him was not tolerated.

That organization went from almost 2,000 students in about 20 independently owned dojos to about 30 students in one dojo. And he doesn't have the fail all first timers policy any more.

Considering how he ran it, Im not surprised it didn't last. Im not surprised its now just one dojo with 30 students.

 

[Balrog]

We charge $65 for a colored belt testing. Black Belt testings are more expensive, but they are much further apart and the students "pre-pay" them with midterm testing fees.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can understand why you'd see it that way. I think some instructors see it as just a different way of billing. If I charge you $70/month and $60 once a year for a promotion, that's the same as charging you $75/month, assuming you average a promotion once a year. And since some tests require a lot of work by the instructor (time away from teaching, etc.), I can see a valid reason for those to cost a bit more. If I had to do testing outside regular class times (which I'd have to do for brown and black right now, because I have nobody else to teach classes), I'd charge something to cover that extra time. If I could do it all within normal classes, I'd be disinclined to charge extra for it.

@Mark Lynn - which part of this post did you disagree with?