Being overweight, judging overweight, judging others generally...

[Archangel M]

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/economic_consequences.htm

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/071002/obesity-driving-rising-us-health-costs.htm

"The United States spends twice as much as European countries on health care," noted lead researcher Kenneth Thorpe, chairman of the department of health policy and management at Emory University's Rollins School of Public Health in Atlanta. "Seventy-five percent of what we spend in this country is associated with patients that have one or more chronic conditions and most of the growth is due to obesity."

Just google "obesity and health care cost" and read away.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

One option that comes to mind is increasing contributions based on lifestyle. Dont care about your weight or your smoking habit, then you pay more into health care than those who do. Participate in a program to show that you are taking action then that ammount will be reduced.

Ah, but it is already happening. Where my wife works, the company had a plan - a health plan. Get healthy, go to an approved health club and get checked quarterly to ensure you are on track to your 'plan' and get a discount on the company's health insurance premiums. Sounds good, right?

But not enough people participated. So the company made it mandatory. If you were 'asked' to join a health club by your manager, and you refused, you got a $100 copay added to ever doctor visit. If you joined the health club but did not make the quarterly checkups or failed to meet your company-set 'goal', you lost your health insurance completely.

My wife is now on my health insurance, which does not have such onerous requirements. The company she works for still requires all employees, insured through them or not, to submit to an annual health screening, and the results are sent to managers - who hassle my wife about her weight and 'lifestyle choices'. If she did not absolutely need this job, she'd have told them to shove it a long time ago.

From my point of view, it's a criminal intrusion into her privacy. I just wish I could do something about it, but apparently it is quite legal. I expect to see more and more of this as health costs continue to rise. Get in shape, fattie, or lose your health insurance.

Even in countries that have national health care, there have been well-known issues of people being denied health care due to their own bad health-care choices - no lung transplants for smokers, no surgery for people told to lose weight who fail to do so. What a world we're heading towards. A healthy, happy, world. By law.

 

[Archangel M]

Whats the alternative? Everybody pays for others health choices?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Whats the alternative? Everybody pays for others health choices?

Insurance is a socialist scheme to begin with. Everybody pays into the pool, and the money is given to people who incur covered expenses.

If we are talking about health insurance, then everyone pays premiums to cover sick people. If there are enough sick people, premiums rise. People who do not have many claims get a bad deal - they pay for services they don't get. People who have a lot of claims get a good deal - they do not pay full cost for services they receive.

In order to keep the costs lower, many exclusions are applied. People with pre-existing conditions are often excluded or excluded for a period of time. Many conditions are not covered, and situations under which the need for health care was incurred may also be excluded.

If we decide, for example, to charge fatties more, then we also have to charge smokers more. And if we're going to do that, then there is no reason not to charge other risk factors more - such as those who ski, snowmobile, skydive, etc. Tattooed people, recreational drug users, and those who take anti-depressants are higher risks too. Some occupations are much higher risk than others, including police officers, EMT's, doctors, etc. Then we get into new breakthroughs that identify genetic risk factors for diseases.

The point is that it is a slippery slope. Healthy non-fatties who are non-smokers may complain that they pay 'more' for the dangerous behavior that they don't engage in - but that's the nature of insurance - you also pay more for people with congenital diseases that they inherited, and people who get drunk and crash their cars and those who get AIDs from being butt-pirates.

If you insist that fatties and smokers pay more or be excluded from your group, then the others must be on the list as well. What you end up with are groups of very cheap insurance for those who do everything right, and very expensive or prohibitively expensive insurance groups for people who do not - which kind of defeats the socialist ideals of insurance in the first place.

When you take part in a cost-sharing scheme, you accept that some will pay for services they do not get and some will get services they did not pay for.

 

[KempoGuy06]

LOL, reminds me of my college job. I was a waiter at an Italian Restaurant/take out place in Long Island, dude all of us were bombed out of our minds but functional a good chunk of the time. It's monkey work you could do without being very mentally engaged. Ah, the good old days when we used to go back behind the building and smoke up then wash off with Listerine and Febreeze before the evening rush.

As for fat people, they disgust me. Those big watery eyes fatties get that remind me of a cow always makes me laugh. The worst part are the fat chicks who hit on you though. As if I who spend so much time working out would ever even be seen with someone who's idea of caring for themselves is hair and make up ... ever notice fat chicks really do up the hair and make up? LOL.

As for fighting a fat opponent, same rules apply, except you usually have a small amount of time more than usuall because they have to move their bulk. It's still about moving and finding the angle though. Oh, and strikes to the midsection are not as effective, go for the legs.

Did I offend? I'm sorry. I just don't have a high opinion of 'em, sue me.

i would comment but honestly you arent worth my time and id like not to get kicked of this site, so ill keep my opinions to myself unlike what you did

B

 

[KempoGuy06]

what is this thread about?

B

 

[Carol]

Whats the alternative? Everybody pays for others health choices?

To be Devil's advocate, Arch, would you support such an actuarial decision making regardless of whether you were or were not on the beneficial side of the decision?

For example, as a LEO, you are subject to a greater-than-average risk of injury (or worse) due to motor vehicle accidents and assaults from BGs. Should your health care costs be higher than (say) an accountant, who typically faces little-to-no risk of injury on the job?

What about pricing based on education levels? Discounts on auto insurance in Massachusetts are slim-to-none, due to the unique state regulations on the industry. Yet I was able to receive a discount on my auto insurance because I have a (verifiable) Bachelor's degree. Actuarially, folks with a four year degree take less risks with their lives and property than those that don't. A quick google on health care costs and college education indicates that people with a 4 year degree (or higher) tend to have lower costs than those without.

 

[Cryozombie]

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/economic_consequences.htm

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/071002/obesity-driving-rising-us-health-costs.htm



Just google "obesity and health care cost" and read away.

Unless I'm completley misreading those articles, it is citing health care costs... thats what americans are paying... not "Bobby is Fat, so Tony has to pay more" which is the common argument I hear why people's diet and excercise programs are everyone elses buisness. While Im sure there is a certain amount of that built in, by the same token, Im sure there is a certain amount of cost built in as well because of STD's... should It be my buisness to tell people to quit having sex? Or the over use of Alcohol, or just about any number of other factors... And thats not counting the soaring costs of healthcare due to Hospital E.R.'s being used as primary care physicians for Illegal immigrants... I'm willing to bet your health care costs a lot more do to that than fat people...

I'm just saying, that if we are going to say "Hey Fat guy, you are costing me money" we should be doing it fairly across the board, cuz I'm doubtful its the biggest culprit of them all...

 

[searcher]

Insurance needs a whole new thread...............What a beast that one is.


I have a question for you all, How many of you are currently helping with overweight people to get them into shape? And how many are not? I currently have a fair number of obese clients that are in dire need of help, but some won't help themselves. How do you feel about that part of the equation?

Of those who are overweight, how many of you are doing something about it? I know there are some that are curently working on it.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Insurance is something I hate anyway. I'm paying for something I may or may not use, and I'm paying alot for it.

All in all, if I were to not pay for insurance, and just go to the doctor and take the kids to the hospital when the need arises, I would probably come out the same, if not a little better than what I do now. At least I would if hospital and medical fees weren't so outrageous to begin with.

The medical field as a whole charges far more than what the should charge, but they are able to do so because people are going to need medical help at some point.

Besides all that, it's like pulling teeth to actually get the insurance company to do what you pay them to do in the first place. I have never in my life seen any company try harder to do nothing than the insurance that I pay for. The only reason I don't switch companies is because I can't afford to...the insurance is through my job, so I get discounts that I wouldn't get using a private insurance company.

In my own personal situation:

We just had twin girls. My wife and I planned on having just one, but were pleasently surprised to find out we were expecting twins. We planned on having a child during a time of financial stability, before we knew the economy was going down the crapper in a hurry, and our jobs would end up far less than secure.

So now we have a hefty, hefty medical bill that I doubt very seriously we'll be able to pay off within the next 30 years, due to fighting the insurance company in what they were supposed to pay and what we agreed to pay, and having to deal with my wife being laid off from her job. Top all of that off with the fact that her unemployment, for some weird reason, wasn't taxed, so now we owe the government that is bailing out everyone and their grandmother over $2,000 for something that wasn't even supposed to happen. Even better, when we try to apply for government assistance, like food stamps, I'm told that I make too much, even for a family of four, and yet we can't afford to buy the milk to feed our girls.

If I didn't have to pay for the insurance that is pretty much worthless, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be in the financial disaster that I'm in at the moment.

All of that being said:

To add to that some kind of stipulation that overweight people have to pay more money for coverage would be the same as shooting me between the eyes. There isn't any possible way I could afford to pay more money, when half the reason I weigh as much as I do is because I can't afford to buy the healthy food to begin with.

Beyond that, who's going to make up the rule of who's fat and who's not? Someone like Omar? I would hope not. But seriously, how would something like that be judged? BMI is a flawed system at best, and just to look at someone and say they're overweight is far less accurate than BMI.

The truth of the matter is that fat people are not what's driving premiums on insurance up...sure, fat people don't help the situation, but I just can't see that being a huge factor in the price of anything other than a grocery bill.

A good example to back that up...how many life insurance polocies stipulate how much you should weigh to qualify? I know they specify a better rate for non-smokers and non-drinkers.

Bottom line: the only thing insurance is good for is saying that you have insurance. They don't actually do jack to help you. The only actual added benefit you get from an insurance company is saying that you're a member when you go to the hospital. You're more likely to be seen if you have active insurance than if you're not insured...which is a steaming pile of crap, too.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Insurance needs a whole new thread...............What a beast that one is.


I have a question for you all, How many of you are currently helping with overweight people to get them into shape? And how many are not? I currently have a fair number of obese clients that are in dire need of help, but some won't help themselves. How do you feel about that part of the equation?

Of those who are overweight, how many of you are doing something about it? I know there are some that are curently working on it.

You posted this while I was ranting about insurance...I agree that it needs a whole new thread...so my appologies for the rant lol.

At the moment, I'm not able to help anyone else lose weight. I am, however, on my own weightloss program, and have lost 43 pounds since January 1st. I have been trying to eat healthier, as much as I can afford, and I'm trying to stay more active.

It's not easy, but it's working. I do feel better, and I am somewhat healthier. The thing is, though, that I actually want to lose weight.

For those that don't want to lose weight, it's up to them. If they're happy being that way, it's not my place to try to change their mind, just like Bill Mattocks was talking about. I agree with what he was saying about that. I'm not here to force my health beliefs on anyone else...the best I can do is to make sure that I'm healthy and that I am comfortable with the way that I am.

Not that I wouldn't like to see everyone out there be healthy, but it's just like anything else that's dealing with individual: it's an individual decision.

Other people being overweight and unhealthy aren't affecting me, unless they're sick and/or contagious, and then it's my responsibility to make sure that I'm not around them to catch whatever they have.

 

[Steve]

All of this backs up what I said in my previous post...it all comes down to tact.

Omar doesn't like fat people.

The rest of the people here apparently don't like Omar, because of the way he says that he doesn't like fat people.

Let's let it go. I'm sure we all have better things to do than to hurl fat rocks at eachother.

So... this is an entire thread about Omar? Like him or hate him, I don't understand why anyone on this board deserves that kind of attention.

I still don't know what this thread is about, but I will share my opinion. Bill mentioned earlier that everyone has to die, and that's true. I might keel over tomorrow. But I can say that eating more veggies and less meat, exercising and losing 40 lbs has had a significant affect on my overall health. 3 years ago, when I started BJJ, I was over 220 lbs, pre-diabetic and had very high cholesterol.

And even though I no longer eat as much fatty meats and sugars, which I love, I have no regrets. I don't even enjoy beer as often as I would like! If it means more quality, healthy time with my kids... and hopefully their kids... I will happily do so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill mentioned earlier that everyone has to die, and that's true. I might keel over tomorrow. But I can say that eating more veggies and less meat, exercising and losing 40 lbs has had a significant affect on my overall health. 3 years ago, when I started BJJ, I was over 220 lbs, pre-diabetic and had very high cholesterol.

And even though I no longer eat as much fatty meats and sugars, which I love, I have no regrets. I don't even enjoy beer as often as I would like! If it means more quality, healthy time with my kids... and hopefully their kids... I will happily do so.

I can't argue with your statements - healthy eating and exercise are more than likely going to extend your lifespan and make it a healthier lifespan at the same time. I doubt many people think otherwise.

The questions revolve around whether or not that fact entitles people to demand, suggest, cajole, tease, or otherwise bullyrag people into doing what is 'best' for them.

What if you know the risks and decide you don't care? Is that OK, or must society step in for your own good and MAKE you lose weight and get in shape?

 

[Steve]

I can't argue with your statements - healthy eating and exercise are more than likely going to extend your lifespan and make it a healthier lifespan at the same time. I doubt many people think otherwise.

The questions revolve around whether or not that fact entitles people to demand, suggest, cajole, tease, or otherwise bullyrag people into doing what is 'best' for them.

What if you know the risks and decide you don't care? Is that OK, or must society step in for your own good and MAKE you lose weight and get in shape?

Personally, whenever I get roped into discussions about things like seatbelts, helmet laws, healthy eating, smoking and legalization of drugs, I tend to fall on the side of allowing people to exercise their own discretion. If you want to eat ribeyes and mashed potatoes every night, more power to you. Just don't be surprised if you pay for it later.

Smokers, too... although that one necessarily involves other people. By all means, smoke in your car or home. We shouldn't criminalize it.

Helmets? Well, just hope that you don't land on your noggin, otherwise your life will never be the same. But your lack of judgement doesn't directly affect me.

At the same time, and for exactly the same reasons, I am in favor of legalizing cannibus for adults.

Etc, etc.

Now, to be clear, I have heard and understand many of the liability/cost arguments in favor of these types of laws, but don't buy into them. I could die at BJJ class tomorrow from a freak accident. I can legally go jump out of an airplane or go fishing (statistically, the most dangerous sport in America). We should have choices.

On the other side, though, it should be balanced to protect children from adults with no judgement. In other words, kids are rightfully required to be secured in a car, even if the parents aren't.

Finally, and specific to fat people, buy two damned tickets on the airplane. I'm not a huge guy, but I have relatively broad shoulders, and have been squished in between two fat people before. Had they been required to follow the rules, they would each have had two seats to spread into. These rules and others are not, in my opinion, discriminatory. They are essential. (And for the record, a fat person is refunded the cost of one seat if the plane isn't full).

I hope all that makes sense. This has been a rambling post.

EDIT to add: Bill, I just realized that you're the same guy who is so vehemently opposed to legalizing marijuana. I think that's VERY interesting!

 

[Flea]

I have been trying to eat healthier, as much as I can afford,

Another excellent tangential point. Healthy food costs more. I've been on both sides of this equation; I've been rich and eaten a diet bursting with tofu and veggies and whole grain bread. Now that I'm poor, I eat a lot more instant "pasta" and canned stuff. Fresh produce can cost as much as meat, and when you're poor the priority is to eat as much of what will keep you from feeling hungry as you can. When you're on the edge, quantity wins the day over quality every time.

When you're reduced to the position of filling your tank by whatever means necessary, that means lots of beans and bread. White bread is cheaper than whole grain, with "air-bread" being cheapest of all. White rice is cheaper than brown. Store-brand bologna is cheaper than fresh meat, and anything with a long shelf-life is gold. Add to that the thought that many low-income folk have a lower education level and may not know how to cook (ever notice those pictogram instructions on the side of a mac'n'cheez box?) With such a heavy dependence of cheap sources with empty calories, it's virtually impossible not to gain weight and get sickly. (Which quickly becomes a vicious cycle for many disabled folk as well.) Sadly you'll see this phenomenon at work in soup kitchens too, where the goal is to fill as many bellies as possible. They sometimes get donations of withered produce from farms and grocery stores, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Nobody wants to eat poorly; anyone on this kind of survival budget knows the difference, believe me. I was thrilled when there was talk of adding a bonus to food stamp recipients in the first stimulus package, and unsurprised when it didn't happen. Poor people don't deserve fresh broccoli if we're too lazy to get a job, right?

 

[KempoGuy06]

what is this thread about?

B

no cares to explain? i dont want to make an off topic post

B

 

[Makalakumu]

I think we go down a road we don't want to go down when it comes to trying to regulate a solution for obesity. The choices that people make that result in obesity are very personal and happen so often that you'd basically need the state to be peering into almost every aspect of your life. That isn't worth it for me. Personally, I feel like the insurance companies are pushing for this and that their ultimate goal is for total monitoring.

Also, I think the profit motive behind insurance and behind schemes to make people pay based off of their health risks is immoral. If a guy goes out surfing in a rip that is too powerful for him and I have a jet ski, I'm not going to sit back and let him die because he should have known better. Obesity, IMO, is basically the same thing.

I think it all comes down to what kind of society that we want to have. I would like to have a society that has a high degree of personal freedom and one that supports helping it's citizens be more educated and more healthy. I'd rather see progressive taxation be used as the mechanism for funding health care rather then private health insurance.

What people do afterward is their business. In my own personal political philosophy, education and health care provide the only social safety net that people really need.

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
This thread is titled "Being overweight, judging overweight, judging others generally..." It is not about ANY single member of MartialTalk, or their opinions. It is a discussion of obesity and perceptions based on that. Kindly refrain from focusing on any single member of MartialTalk, lest the posts become personal attacks (prohibited by The Rules). If there is a member whose posting style offends you, I heartily recommend, endorse, and pretty much urge you to make use of the Ignore feature that is available via the User Profile. (Click on the username, go to the Public Profile, select User Lists, and Add to Ignore.)

-jks9199
-Moderator

 

[Ronin74]

Just started a new thread for Health Care, being healthy and related stuff.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74652

 

[Steve]

Another excellent tangential point. Healthy food costs more. I've been on both sides of this equation; I've been rich and eaten a diet bursting with tofu and veggies and whole grain bread. Now that I'm poor, I eat a lot more instant "pasta" and canned stuff. Fresh produce can cost as much as meat, and when you're poor the priority is to eat as much of what will keep you from feeling hungry as you can. When you're on the edge, quantity wins the day over quality every time.

When you're reduced to the position of filling your tank by whatever means necessary, that means lots of beans and bread. White bread is cheaper than whole grain, with "air-bread" being cheapest of all. White rice is cheaper than brown. Store-brand bologna is cheaper than fresh meat, and anything with a long shelf-life is gold. Add to that the thought that many low-income folk have a lower education level and may not know how to cook (ever notice those pictogram instructions on the side of a mac'n'cheez box?) With such a heavy dependence of cheap sources with empty calories, it's virtually impossible not to gain weight and get sickly. (Which quickly becomes a vicious cycle for many disabled folk as well.) Sadly you'll see this phenomenon at work in soup kitchens too, where the goal is to fill as many bellies as possible. They sometimes get donations of withered produce from farms and grocery stores, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Nobody wants to eat poorly; anyone on this kind of survival budget knows the difference, believe me. I was thrilled when there was talk of adding a bonus to food stamp recipients in the first stimulus package, and unsurprised when it didn't happen. Poor people don't deserve fresh broccoli if we're too lazy to get a job, right?

Excellent points and SOME people are in this situation, where pennies really do count.

My anecdotal experience has been that most people can afford to eat healthy foods. Few, however, can afford to eat healthy foods that are prepared by someone else. The problem, in my experience, is convenience. For the price of eating a value meal at McDonalds, you can eat a very healthy lunch that you've prepared yourself from fresh ingredients. Mixed greens, some chicken breast, a few tomatoes, unmolested walnuts and a little oil/vinegar and you've got a very healthy, filling lunch that cost probably less than $3.