Being overweight, judging overweight, judging others generally...

[The Last Legionary]

Moderator warning:

Please address your responses to the OP topic itself. Anyone who wishes to pursue the question of what kinds of judgments of others are legitimate, under what circumstance, etc. is welcome to start a thread specifically on that topic, but the current thread is about a particular SD problem posed by antagonists with certain physical characteristics. Off-topic posts and extended exchanges are not productive and will bring intervention by Staff if they continue.

Bob Levine
MT Senior Moderator

Thanks.

 

[Wishbone]

I wrote,



I don't believe that one form of discrimination is more or less just than another. I don't think it is more reasonable to deride obese people than it is to deride black people. My argument is built on a personal belief that I never attempted to present as a universal truth.

Your counterpoint was to say, 'What about the child molesters?' So we're talking about two completely different things. I'm talking about groups of people at face value. You're talking about people who have invited judgment upon themselves by committing anti-social atrocities. That's the thin reed.

Except that you clearly do think that one form of discrimination is more less just than the other. You think that judging people who commit 'anti-social atrocities' is more just than judging people who are fat. It's clear in your writing. They're only completely different because you choose to see them as such. But at the very core of it, I'm saying it doesn't matter what the situation or circumstances are, we all have the right to judge others, and that when we judge others, it doesn't make us any more right or wrong than the ones we are judging. Judging is completely subjective. Some people would disagree with what you call anti-social atrocities. They would think that it is a natural way to live and probably judge things about your life. Who is right and who is wrong? It's all a matter of perspective.

It's only a thin reed because that's the way you choose to see it.

 

[Wishbone]

Except that you clearly do think that one form of discrimination is more less just than the other. You think that judging people who commit 'anti-social atrocities' is more just than judging people who are fat. It's clear in your writing. They're only completely different because you choose to see them as such. But at the very core of it, I'm saying it doesn't matter what the situation or circumstances are, we all have the right to judge others, and that when we judge others, it doesn't make us any more right or wrong than the ones we are judging. Judging is completely subjective. Some people would disagree with what you call anti-social atrocities. They would think that it is a natural way to live and probably judge things about your life. Who is right and who is wrong? It's all a matter of perspective.

It's only a thin reed because that's the way you choose to see it.

Saw the moderator warning after I posted this, apologies.

 

[exile]

Mod Notice:

This thread has been split off from the discussion whose OP addressed the question of how to engage large/fat/big antagonists in self-defense situation, and the special problems posed by combat with such individuals. The current thread represents a series of exchanges which involve issues about weight as a personal characteristics, negative judgments about overweight people or people generally, and the right to make judgments. Please address these issues seriously and without personal animosity, as per MT's TOS rules.

 

[Hand Sword]

Truthfully, one shouldn't make judgements based on appearances. However, there is a problem with, forgive me, "fatness." American society in general is plagued with this issue, all the way down to our children, who, are more obese than ever. This is a serious issue.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Good to see this thread has split. Good call by the mods.

TFW,

I'm going to tread out on the head of a philosophical pin -- on the one hand, yes, race and weight are different. The choice to cast judgment over a group of people for their weight, age, race or religion, to my mind, equates to the same thing. What if people could change their race? Should they do that for convenience sake? People can change their religion? Should they?

Your argument -- though I respect that it comes from a thoughtful place -- suggests the people have rights in certain cases to judge others. If it's ok to pronounce upon fuller-figured people like me, it's similarly ok to pronounce upon the poor. Heavy people can get lighter in many cases, but they should be doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do, not because their presence offends others.

Sorry to drift the thread, everybody.

Sorry my post was open to this interpretation. As I stated, I wasn't supporting Omar's judgment nor supporting judging others in general just pointing out the fact that there existed a difference. I'm currently overweight (BMI 28) myself and unlike in the past, my extra mass is definitely not muscle. Seeing as I'm not the hypocritical type, I'm hardly going to insult another martial artist for being overweight. However, if someone were to insult me on my weight (and a few people who have known me pre-gut have done so), I wouldn't be anywhere near as offended as if they had insulted me on my race (which also occurs).

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm glad this was split from the OP, because this is an interesting topic to discuss as well...

I am a large person. I'm not fat because of genetics. I'm large because of genetics. There is a difference.

I have a higher percentage of body fat because I became lazy and complacent, and did nothing about it until recently. However, even if I were to be a lean, mean, fighting machine, I would safely weight 230 lbs...and I say safely because it's not worth getting sick just to drop pounds.

I am certain that at 230 lbs, I will have lost my spare tire, have toned and defined muscles, and be at the correct BMI. But 230 lbs is still heavy, no matter how you look at it.

Does weighing that amount make me fat? No. I'm just a big guy. I know the old saying "big boned" gets played out, but I truly have a large frame...my shin bones are more than 3" across...that's not from being fat, that's from having a large frame. Add on top of that muscle, and it all starts to add up.

Now, being judemental of the fact that I'm a big guy without even knowing anything about me is petty. And, quite honestly, I try to make a good first impression on people, but if my size turns your head the other direction, what have I lost?

And, just to clarify the whole thing about judging a rapist or child molester...

Can you tell a child molester just by looking at them? You may think you can, but if that were the case, catching them would be far easier than it actually is.

The issue at hand is people who judge others by physical appearance, without knowing anything about them. Judging a child molester is different, because molesting a child is not a physical attribute.

What sets people off about those that judge based on physical appearance is the "holier than thou" state of mind that they portray. In this case, Omar doesn't appear to be one who needs to cast stones, if that is his picture in his profile...

It is one thing to find someone unattractive because of physical appearance, but it is another to judge their character based on physical appearance, which is what Omar did in his post that started all of this. Just because someone is fat doesn't mean that they will eat everything in sight, and making an assumption like that is an assumption of someone's character, plain and simple.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Good to see this thread has split. Good call by the mods.

Sorry my post was open to this interpretation. As I stated, I wasn't supporting Omar's judgment nor supporting judging others in general just pointing out the fact that there existed a difference.

I don't think it was. I was running off on a tangent, balanced upon certain assumptions that I cling to.

For my part, my needle was stuck on "righteous indignation;" rather than simply stating my case, I resorted to sarcasm and arrogance. In and of itself, not the crime of the century, but if I had had to listen to me, I would have kicked myself.

 

[harlan]

I think a small, but important, aspect of this topic has been overlooked.

While we are inheritors of the idea of the 'right to free speech', society no longer allows the traditionally accepted right to correct another's improper use of it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't mind being judged for being fat. I don't care if people find it distasteful or offensive, or if they tell jokes about my wide ***. Truly, it doesn't bother me.

I only object to people telling me how I ought to live based on their preferences. I'm 'too fat' for their taste - or some medical standard - and they feel compelled to inform me about it. I respectfully suggest that such people should stick to their knitting and leave me to mine.

"But being fat is not healthy," is not a valid reason for telling me how to live my life.

In many ways, fat is the next frontier of social control. We are slowly, but surely, making personal choice in lifestyle obsolete in favor of social approval.

I can go to San Francisco - see a man leading another man down the street on a dog leash, both of them wearing biker leather and diapers with nipple clamps, and I have to accept that and be tolerant of their lifestyle. But light up a cigarette and you'd think I was Satan, marching down the street and farting brimstone on widows and orphans.

And the argument that my fat (or my former smoking) is a public health issue and therefore that makes it YOUR business - is bogus. If that's true, then I demand no more extreme sports. I demand no more gay men - after all, you bone smugglers are destroying our public health system with all your nasty diseases. What? You mean I can't demand that the gay guys stop driving the hershey highway? Then get off my fat *** about my fat ***. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, baby.

 

[rabbit]

Look at some powerlifters. They are overweight and very very very strong. If you are overweight and not fit, it's time to start working out. I think anyone on martial talk that has weight problem is going in the right direction by practicing their martial art.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you are overweight and not fit, it's time to start working out.

Unless you don't want to.

I think anyone on martial talk that has weight problem is going in the right direction by practicing their martial art.

My weight isn't a problem for me. My only problem is with people for whom my weight is a problem.

Sorry, nothing personal. Just noting some fairly common statements people make - ie, they think that someone has a 'weight problem' and therefore it is a problem. With respect, your opinion of my weight has no standing.

:asian:

 

[rabbit]

Unless you don't want to.



My weight isn't a problem for me. My only problem is with people for whom my weight is a problem.

Sorry, nothing personal. Just noting some fairly common statements people make - ie, they think that someone has a 'weight problem' and therefore it is a problem. With respect, your opinion of my weight has no standing.

:asian:

ok

 

[KELLYG]

All you have to do is look at advertisements on TV, Magazines, in the movies, thin model (body type) is almost exclusively what is being sold. Heaven help you if you don't fit the mold, what ever that is. Then you have to listen to some dumb a## explain that you are too fat therefore unworthy. The thin model (body type) is a fallacy. They are the ones that are abnormal. They want us to feel bad about ourselves so that we won't realize it.

The thin model stereo type and its fall out has probably done more harm than good. Young people >men and women> 6, 7, and 8 year olds that are running around on diets trying to live up the the hype that for most of us is unattainable anyway. How many young people have developed life threatening eating disorders or have died to buy into the supper skinny hype.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting op-ed piece, published today:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009903240322

I've noticed it myself. When people have a problem with something a fat person says - like, say Rush Limbaugh - the first thing they say is something about their weight - not their argument.

Nobody ever says "Did you hear what that tall SOB said the other day?"

But they will say "Did you hear what that fatass said the other day?"

Why?

 

[Sukerkin]

So true, Kelly. On similar lines I believe I have said in a related thread that there are a variety of body types for a very good genetic reason - that diversity allows for a greater chance of species survival under different circumstances.

If we were all super 'ripped', hyper-metabolic, walking cliches then, come a time of shortage and, paff, there goes the whole Bronzed-Adonis lot of us .

This doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to slim down my newly aquired fat tum; after all I lived for forty years as a 'Slim White Duke'. But neither does it mean that I will be bullied about it either.

 

[KELLYG]

I think of it this way, I'm not over weight just height impaired.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Say what you want, but IMO, it all comes down to tact.

Some people have tact, others do not. Those that don't offend others in the crowd and don't worry about it, but rest assured will be up in arms when offended about something else. Those that do will know what to say and when and how to say it.

It's not being politically correct, it's being just plain nice. Those that don't understand how to be nice in public get treated like the child that they act like.

The thing about discussion forums is that we're all here to discuss. We are not here to force our opinions and beliefs down one another's throats, nor are we here to make childish insults regarding, of all things, someone's weight.

Grow up, people.

 

[Steve]

Edit: Reading through the rest of the thread, I'm just deleting my post. This is a thread that needs to be allowed to pass away.

 

[JadeDragon3]

As for fat people, they disgust me. Those big watery eyes fatties get that remind me of a cow always makes me laugh. The worst part are the fat chicks who hit on you though. As if I who spend so much time working out would ever even be seen with someone who's idea of caring for themselves is hair and make up ... ever notice fat chicks really do up the hair and make up? LOL.

Did I offend? I'm sorry. I just don't have a high opinion of 'em, sue me

I've got plenty of faults ... like being tasteless for one. But as you said, what people think of me matters not unless you are giving me a pay check.

Omar, You are a shallow, selfish, egotistical, little boy that needs to grow up. Some people can't help there overweightness. Some people have a thyroid gland problem others may have other reasons. But Omar, you have NO right to ridicule. What if I judged you and said that you were just a camel jockey because you have a middle eastern name? I wouldn't call you that though because I have more class than that. Just like I wouldn't call you any other middle eastern deragatory names. So Omar, my advise to you is grow up, act like an adult, and change your name.

And one last thing Omar, no I'm not overweight. Just thought I'd clear that up before you say I must be fat for taking up for fat people. It's called having cooth(sp?). Thats manners in case you didn't know.