Become a fighting machine

[JowGaWolf]

Please guys keep focus!

I have been in contact with Lior Offenbach, and talked about my situation with him. He told me that i could use mma instead of krav maga, when i dont have that opportunity. I just had to focus more on the striking, distance movement and strike and move etc. so until i find a krav maga gym that actually have some decend training, i will do this with my mma instructor.

That's great. It seems as if you are getting some insight on how to focus your MMA training so that it will meet what you want to get out of self-defense.

And so self defence training reflects the life and death nature of a street fight more accurately?

You can use the tools learned in MMA. in dark corners, against ambushes and even against malicious people. (we have seen that every single post I have made) You can even add to those tools with other skills from outside MMA. But you need those basic tools first. There are very few illegal moves that cannot be trained using legal ones. Now this is important because the effectiveness of any move relyes on the individuals ability to apply it.

Competition places importance on the result of the training which you will struggle to get otherwise. You cant really learn to win if there is no cost to loosing. You also can't send people off into street fights as it defeats the purpose of self defence. So you get limited things you can do in a training setting.

Your mindset has to last the whole fight. For most people it does not go much past the first punch. MMA and sport in general use the method of pressure testing the person and the system to develop this. To do that you need rules because too much risk is detremental to creating a stronger willed person. You can't train effectively without rules.

If you can incapacitate a person using pads, using rules, and without malice. You will be better equiped to incapacitate someone when you dont use rules.

Self-defense would have stated not to engage the person physically if you don't have to. What I saw here was an MMA fighter go after a person who was walking away. While the guy person did push the boxes, he didn't push the guy in the black shirt. It was the guy in the black shirt that initiated the attack.

 

[drop bear]

That's great. It seems as if you are getting some insight on how to focus your MMA training so that it will meet what you want to get out of self-defense.

Self-defense would have stated not to engage the person physically if you don't have to. What I saw here was an MMA fighter go after a person who was walking away. While the guy person did push the boxes, he didn't push the guy in the black shirt. It was the guy in the black shirt that initiated the attack.

The bit you missed out to focus on the video is.

Does self defence training reflect the life and death nature of a street fight more accurately? Is self defence training restriced by rules and safety mesures?

We are talking about training for self defence and what can be reasonably achieved. You cant set up impossible goals for people. It is unmanageable.

As far as the video. When you train for self defence you need to consider potential threats as well as actual assults. If someone is attacking you every time your back is turned you need to address that threat.

You cant just leave the guy hanging around.

And of course. The MMA examples just keep on coming. All these people who understand how sports training actually relates to self defence. Wow there are just so many.
Burglar picks wrong house; MMA fighter beats him 'with mercy'

 

[drop bear]

The mental game has been mentioned regarding the stress of self defence. There is an equivalent stepping in to the ring as it can be quite a mental hurdle. Here are some common reactions and how to mitigate them somewhat.

5 Tips For Your First Muay Thai Fight

 

[Buka]

Please guys keep focus!

I have been in contact with Lior Offenbach, and talked about my situation with him. He told me that i could use mma instead of krav maga, when i dont have that opportunity. I just had to focus more on the striking, distance movement and strike and move etc. so until i find a krav maga gym that actually have some decend training, i will do this with my mma instructor.

You go, bro. It's all going to be good anyway. Have a ball, let us know how it goes.

 

[JR 137]

It's fair to say that MMA will get you better prepared for a bad situation than some martial art that was created in medieval Asia.

I don't know why I'm bothering wasting my time with this post, but anyway...

The "medieval Asian arts" flaws aren't the arts themselves (for the most part), it's the current training methods in some places. Not enough resistance during training and taking idiotic beliefs like "this is too dangerous to practice against an opponent" seriously. Some things obviously shouldn't be done with much force to a training partner - knife hand to the throat or back of the neck, kicks to the knees, etc.

You shouldn't lump all "medieval Asian arts" into one McDojo crap sandwich. Far too many full-contact/hard contact schools out there for that. Far too many zero contact schools too though.

If you took some MMA schools and made them light contact with a point fighting aspect similar in scope to point fighting, MMA wouldn't be garbage, the schools that taught that nonsense would be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Joseph Torrez who killed armed intruder in home invasion will not be charged | Daily Mail Online

MMA and self defence.

Aren't you the one who dislikes anecdotal evidence?

To the OP: MMA is certainly a reasonable approach to self-defense development. As others have noted, there are limitations (no training in weapon defenses). There are also advantages (you're working against folks who are pushing you as hard as possible part of the time). If MMA appeals to you, it's probably a good fit for your needs.

 

[oaktree]

What the sports Orient arts focus on is winning, and on an unconscious level one is condition under a rule set, because the focus is not killing your opponent which is the condition used in other arts.
What makes someone dangerous on the street is the potential to kill you and going into a fight you have to be in that context of mind to think any less is a foolish assumption. The problem with sport Orient arts is that despite all the sparring, cage fighting, condition cardio it doesn't mean anything against the guy who wants nothing but to kill you with the knife he is hiding behind his back and you fully charged in thinking you can tackle or him or strike him.
I'm talking about the guy who when you grappler with and your ear exposed he bites it off, the guy who shoves a pencil in your trachea and this is what fighting on the street in alley ways is throats slashed open with broken beer bottles, is your mind prepared for this does your art prepare you to deal with this?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What the sports Orient arts focus on is winning, and on an unconscious level one is condition under a rule set, because the focus is not killing your opponent which is the condition used in other arts.
What makes someone dangerous on the street is the potential to kill you and going into a fight you have to be in that context of mind to think any less is a foolish assumption. The problem with sport Orient arts is that despite all the sparring, cage fighting, condition cardio it doesn't mean anything against the guy who wants nothing but to kill you with the knife he is hiding behind his back and you fully charged in thinking you can tackle or him or strike him.
I'm talking about the guy who when you grappler with and your ear exposed he bites it off, the guy who shoves a pencil in your trachea and this is what fighting on the street in alley ways is throats slashed open with broken beer bottles, is your mind prepared for this does your art prepare you to deal with this?

This is an over-stated case. Sport-oriented styles that train for hard contact actually do a decent job of preparing for defense. While they usually have some in-built limitations in the scope of their practice, they usually train with harder contact and get themselves in better shape. IMO, this is a good offset to the difference in focus.

Now, if we are talking point-sparring competitions, then that's a valid point. Unless, of course, you compare them to "self-defense" training that only moves slow, uses predictable, over-committed, and single- movement attacks, in which case the point-sparrer may actually have the advantage.

I prefer to train specifically for self-defense. There are those who train much harder than I do, who happen to be in sport styles, who are at least as well prepared.

 

[oaktree]

They prepare someone to go toe to toe with someone that's it. That is someone who agrees to go that way and square off, sure an mma fighter has a better chance.
But no one can predict what the other guy is going to do, what his mindset is, does he have weapons and mma prepares someone to go in to fight and square off as they do in sparring or cage fight.
Let me give you an example with someone I recently had visit me he was a bjj guy nice guy. So we were talking about Street fights and asked him so how would you approach a street fight initial move thought. He said he would assume a fighting stance, look for a way to close the gap, take him down and submit him, I said that's good here is how o assume it, I assume you have a weapon, I assume you want to kill me, I assume if I close the gap we grapple you pull out weapn and use it. I assume if we try to strike you use the weapon. My goal is to make him home alive I don't care who wins, if I have to bite your ear off stab you, tear your trachea out with my bare hands to get home that's what I do and that sir is the difference between sport Orient arts and realistic Street defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They prepare someone to go toe to toe with someone that's it. That is someone who agrees to go that way and square off, sure an mma fighter has a better chance.
But no one can predict what the other guy is going to do, what his mindset is, does he have weapons and mma prepares someone to go in to fight and square off as they do in sparring or cage fight.
Let me give you an example with someone I recently had visit me he was a bjj guy nice guy. So we were talking about Street fights and asked him so how would you approach a street fight initial move thought. He said he would assume a fighting stance, look for a way to close the gap, take him down and submit him, I said that's good here is how o assume it, I assume you have a weapon, I assume you want to kill me, I assume if I close the gap we grapple you pull out weapn and use it. I assume if we try to strike you use the weapon. My goal is to make him home alive I don't care who wins, if I have to bite your ear off stab you, tear your trachea out with my bare hands to get home that's what I do and that sir is the difference between sport Orient arts and realistic Street defense.

There are plenty of MMA-trained folks using that training to work doors (bouncers) and make arrests. Their training is not nearly so narrowly useful as your statements would suggest. Yes, they have some habits that are not well-suited to a defensive situation, but the question you put to that BJJ guy is not really a self-defense scenario, either. Because that BJJ guy is trained to keep his opponent's hands off him (assuming he's gi-trained, especially), he'll actually have some instincts and movements that will serve him reasonably if a weapon is involved.

As for the other guy drawing a weapon if you close, that's something that has been discussed in other threads. Once you close, he should have a really hard time getting to that weapon...or even thinking about it. If you are closing when he's not attacking and a weapon isn't already in evidence, I'm not sure why you're closing, at all.

 

[oaktree]

There are plenty of MMA-trained folks using that training to work doors (bouncers) and make arrests. Their training is not nearly so narrowly useful as your statements would suggest. Yes, they have some habits that are not well-suited to a defensive situation, but the question you put to that BJJ guy is not really a self-defense scenario, either. Because that BJJ guy is trained to keep his opponent's hands off him (assuming he's gi-trained, especially), he'll actually have some instincts and movements that will serve him reasonably if a weapon is involved.

As for the other guy drawing a weapon if you close, that's something that has been discussed in other threads. Once you close, he should have a really hard time getting to that weapon...or even thinking about it. If you are closing when he's not attacking and a weapon isn't already in evidence, I'm not sure why you're closing, at all.

Well just agree to disagree I have said my piece personally, I find these discussions to be kicking a dead horse with different chess pieces best of luck to you

 

[drop bear]

Aren't you the one who dislikes anecdotal evidence?

To the OP: MMA is certainly a reasonable approach to self-defense development. As others have noted, there are limitations (no training in weapon defenses). There are also advantages (you're working against folks who are pushing you as hard as possible part of the time). If MMA appeals to you, it's probably a good fit for your needs.

I like evidence with a source.

There is a tactical shift from sport to self defence but the posts so far haven't really addressed the differences in any meaningful manner.

It instead has been this no rules fiction. Which in general is looking at the wrong things.

Or like oaktree just did where he suggested that mma cant address a knife attack. Which makes sense because its a frigging knife. You will get stabbed MMAing knife guys. But biting dudes ears of doesn't stop you getting stabbed either.

In reality there are different guidelines. And extra factors to consider.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like evidence with a source.

There is a tactical shift from sport to self defence but the posts so far haven't really addressed the differences in any meaningful manner.

It instead has been this no rules fiction. Which in general is looking at the wrong things.

Or like oaktree just did where he suggested that mma cant address a knife attack. Which makes sense because its a frigging knife. You will get stabbed MMAing knife guys. But biting dudes ears of doesn't stop you getting stabbed either.

In reality there are different guidelines. And extra factors to consider.

"Evidence with a source" is evidence. Anecdotal evidence is "stories" with trustworthy sources. That was the point you seemed not to understand in that discussion.

That said, I agree. Hell, you're likely to get stabbed doing much of anything to someone with a knife. The odds can be shifted somewhat by having training around knife defenses, but a very good MMA fighter isn't exactly useless in that scenario.

 

[drop bear]

"Evidence with a source" is evidence. Anecdotal evidence is "stories" with trustworthy sources. That was the point you seemed not to understand in that discussion.

That said, I agree. Hell, you're likely to get stabbed doing much of anything to someone with a knife. The odds can be shifted somewhat by having training around knife defenses, but a very good MMA fighter isn't exactly useless in that scenario.

There is so much mythology regarding knife stuff that you pretty much need to be sceptical of all of it.

We just really dont know the risk reward aspect of unarmed vs knife.

Especially the anecdotes.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know why I'm bothering wasting my time with this post, but anyway...

The "medieval Asian arts" flaws aren't the arts themselves (for the most part), it's the current training methods in some places. Not enough resistance during training and taking idiotic beliefs like "this is too dangerous to practice against an opponent" seriously. Some things obviously shouldn't be done with much force to a training partner - knife hand to the throat or back of the neck, kicks to the knees, etc.

You shouldn't lump all "medieval Asian arts" into one McDojo crap sandwich. Far too many full-contact/hard contact schools out there for that. Far too many zero contact schools too though.

If you took some MMA schools and made them light contact with a point fighting aspect similar in scope to point fighting, MMA wouldn't be garbage, the schools that taught that nonsense would be.

I was responding to the nonsense that TMAs are better for self defense than modern martial arts by default. Sorry, but I don't believe that a martial art designed for a samurai on horseback, or for a rebel in China is going to do much good against a threat in modern society. Which frankly is why many of those arts were modernized in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

I was responding to the nonsense that TMAs are better for self defense than modern martial arts by default. Sorry, but I don't believe that a martial art designed for a samurai on horseback, or for a rebel in China is going to do much good against a threat in modern society. Which frankly is why many of those arts were modernized in the first place.

It is nether an endorsement or an obstacle. If we look at martial arts for their relevance to self defence. Then the stories are mostly irrelevant.

Whether they be samurai stories IDF stories or Gracie ones.

It works insert evidence here.

It doesn't work.

 

[Hanzou]

It is nether an endorsement or an obstacle. If we look at martial arts for their relevance to self defence. Then the stories are mostly irrelevant.

Whether they be samurai stories IDF stories or Gracie ones.

It works insert evidence here.

It doesn't work.

Thing is, we can verify the Gracie stories.

It's a bit harder to verify whether or not Yojimbo killed 50 ninjas with his bare hands. Heck, we don't know if we're even studying Yojimbo's actual martial art, and not something created by a charlatan in the 1950s.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is so much mythology regarding knife stuff that you pretty much need to be sceptical of all of it.

We just really dont know the risk reward aspect of unarmed vs knife.

Especially the anecdotes.

What we do know - from folks who've had to deal with knives more than once - is that it sucks.

What else we do know - from reasonable interpolation - is that a knife should be treated somewhat differently from an empty hand. These are not huge, but the devil's in these details. For strikers, a knife isn't something you want to just throw up an arm and let it bounce off (like a boxer wading in with his hands and arms guarding his head). For grapplers, you don't want to pull that knife into you, as you might want to do with an empty hand.

We can take those things into consideration and build habits that avoid those, even when working against an empty hand. The differences aren't huge, but they're adaptations we can't expect ourselves to make in the moment.

As I said before, it's not a matter of one way meaning certain failure and the other meaning certain success. We can shift the percentages a bit, and reduce the chances of catastrophic injury. I'm not a fan of spending tons of time on anti-knife training. We do spend an occasional class on it, as well as sneaking in some applications between other bits. That is all built on a set of movements that are effective against either empty-hand or knife-hand. That latter is the more important, since many times the knife isn't seen until it's too late.

So, if I look at the movements found in MMA, some are actually well-suited to knife defense. Like the comment I made about the BJJ folks working to keep the opponent's hands off him, and the distancing work they do to keep a striker from having an easy punch. Some aren't so well-suited, like some of the BJJ movements where they pull the arm into their torso or neck. Most are neutral - they don't create much of an advantage against a knife, but then very little does.

I think the biggest advantage of training knife defense is simply getting used to the concept of being attacked with a knife. It's like that punch to the head you and I have talked about before. One more tool to help control the reactions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was responding to the nonsense that TMAs are better for self defense than modern martial arts by default. Sorry, but I don't believe that a martial art designed for a samurai on horseback, or for a rebel in China is going to do much good against a threat in modern society. Which frankly is why many of those arts were modernized in the first place.

If the practitioners are true to the original intent of the art, they should never need to modernize it. It was correct to contemporary attacks and methods in its days, and should evolve constantly as those change. Somehow, some folks have decided their art was perfect at some arbitrary moment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thing is, we can verify the Gracie stories.

It's a bit harder to verify whether or not Yojimbo killed 50 ninjas with his bare hands. Heck, we don't know if we're even studying Yojimbo's actual martial art, and not something created by a charlatan in the 1950s.

The only issue I have with the Gracie story is that they mostly include exceptional individuals. We can't judge an art (or anything else) by exceptional proponents. The validation of the Gracie system is in the results we see from more "average" practitioners.