Bassai!!!

[JasonASmith]

Hey all,
We worked on Bassai(or Matsumura Patsai) tonight as a class...
I'm stupified...But I love it!
To those that have studied and learned Bassai, what are your thoughts on this kata...
Twend, is this the oldest kata in Shotokan? If not, which one is?
Take care, all...

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Cool that you are having a good time. I spend alot of time roaming around Master Tony Anessi's bushido kai site and he has a dvd that shows applications in Bassai. He says:


There are actually 11 traditional versions of Bassai. Like Kanku-dai, it uses (or is the source of) many of the techniques shown in the Heian kata. We show four versions of Bassai but, more importantly, we spend the lion's share of the video on oyo (application): hidden throws, takedowns and especially arm locks.


It looks like a cool thing. Glad you are having fun.

 

[twendkata71]

I enjoy Bassai dai. I also practice the Shito ryu version. It is closer to the original Okinawan version of the kata.
Out of all of the Shotokan kata, I believe that Kanku dai/Sho(Kusanku) are the oldest,but I may be mistaken. And Bassai or Passai is also very old.
Now, the others like Jion,Jiin,Hangetsu(Seisan),Nijushiho(Niseishi),Sochin,Gojushiho dai/sho(Useishi), are very old as well.
There are some who believe that the Gojushiho comes from the Drunken boxing Chinese forms. If you see the Shorin ryu version of this kata, you can still see the influence.
The Tekki (Naihanchi) series are to my knowledge about 150 years old, depending on who you talk to. The Heian series are about a 100 years old now. Meikyo(from Rohai) in its original Rohai is old, but there is much of the history on this kata has been lost to time. Some say it comes from the White Crane style of Chinese boxing.
Back to the subject of Bassai dai. It is a kata worth putting some time into. It is a stong kata with a lot of hidden secrets. Bassai Sho I think is not so old.

Hey all,
We worked on Bassai(or Matsumura Patsai) tonight as a class...
I'm stupified...But I love it!
To those that have studied and learned Bassai, what are your thoughts on this kata...
Twend, is this the oldest kata in Shotokan? If not, which one is?
Take care, all...

 

[twendkata71]

One note on the Heian series. Funakoshi Osensei learned them from the creator of the kata. Itosu personally. He also learned Bassai and Kanku dai(Kusanku) from Itosu.

 

[JasonASmith]

Thank you very much, Twend, Sir...
I want to make it clear that I am not RESPONSIBLE for Bassai yet(i.e. I'm not going to be tested on it any time soon); merely that I've been exposed to it...Unfortunately I have a close proximity to a photographic memory, so the movements of the kata are ingraining themselves into my gray matter as I type at you...
Either way, it's my kind of kata!

 

[twendkata71]

You should really like Sochin when you get to it. That is some time off. It is a powerful,strength building kata. I orginally learned Bassai dai from a gentleman that was on the USA team. I think that his name is Dan Deere, but it has been many years since and I have not seen him around for years.

 

[Naha]

I agree. It has become one of my favorite kata; however, I have a rep for liking kata that others around me don't seem to enjoy. It seems the more I do Bassai the better I like it.

 

[JasonASmith]

I agree. It has become one of my favorite kata; however, I have a rep for liking kata that others around me don't seem to enjoy. It seems the more I do Bassai the better I like it.

Welcome to M.T., Naha...
We hope that you have fun posting here...
Thanks for the reply, and I agree with you...Not many of the white belts in the dojo enjoy doing the Silat kata that we practice, so I have gravitated towards it...I guess it's because of the deep stances...?

 

[TimoS]

A few years ago I came across this article about Bassai kata on e-budo. Enjoy

 

[twendkata71]

That was the article in Inside Karate magazine. I had that magazine many years ago. Not sure what ever happened to it. It was a good article in the different types of Bassai. Demura Hanshi is very knowledgeble in kata matters.

 

[JasonASmith]

Well, we worked Bassai again tonight as a class, tying up loose ends and other things...One thing that has become EXTREMELY apparent to me is this: When you work advanced katas you need to have your basics down well, or you "mush" up the movements...This kata has really opened my eyes to the value of DOING THINGS CORRECTLY all of the time...This kata is almost like a mirror to me...Here's what your doing wrong, fix it first, and then move on...Either way it's a swift kick in the ***...Which we all need sometimes...:readrules

 

[twendkata71]

You are learning fast. When I started, my first sensei would only teach me the first two heians and I had to work on them for a year before moving on. When I changed teachers then I started learning kata more quickly. I also learn kata quickly. I didn't leave my sensei by the way. He moved.

 

[JasonASmith]

Well, I think that Sensei is trying to suss out the class...
We did Bassai every day this week...Yesterday morning he said this: "O.K., we've done Bassai this week, now we're going to start Kanku Dai..." Then we started the first few movements of Kanku Dai...

 

[terryl965]

Man you are doing Kata's fast at that school, did you have time to learn all the application or are you just learning movements

 

[JasonASmith]

Man you are doing Kata's fast at that school, did you have time to learn all the application or are you just learning movements

95% movements, 5% applications...
That's why I think that he's trying to suss the class out...We're having problems with people not showing up to class and then wanting to be promoted...It's a "If you can't keep up, don't step up" kind of thing, if you understand me...I overheard him mention to one of the black belts that after Kanku Dai, we'll probably go to Gankaku or Hangetsu next...I was hoping to see the Tekkis, but I'm not Sensei...After class, Sensei mentioned to me that he's trying to get Bassai and Kanku Dai out there so that the newer people can see how the movements within these katas relate to what we're doing in the Heian set...I think that it's a pretty good idea.

 

[terryl965]

95% movements, 5% applications...
That's why I think that he's trying to suss the class out...We're having problems with people not showing up to class and then wanting to be promoted...It's a "If you can't keep up, don't step up" kind of thing, if you understand me...I overheard him mention to one of the black belts that after Kanku Dai, we'll probably go to Gankaku or Hangetsu next...I was hoping to see the Tekkis, but I'm not Sensei...After class, Sensei mentioned to me that he's trying to get Bassai and Kanku Dai out there so that the newer people can see how the movements within these katas relate to what we're doing in the Heian set...I think that it's a pretty good idea.

at any later time is he going back to re-teach you all the proper applications, I think it is great that he is moving along. I just know that Bassai has a lot of application to be understood the to the fullest.
I wish you great success in your training Jason

 

[JasonASmith]

at any later time is he going back to re-teach you all the proper applications, I think it is great that he is moving along. I just know that Bassai has a lot of application to be understood the to the fullest.
I wish you great success in your training Jason

Yes, he has made the commitment to return in the future to teach some bunkai, but for right now he is going to move on to other things...In a few months or so he will return to "see where we are" on the kata, and then make his decision based on what he sees then.

 

[Makalakumu]

What rank is your teacher? What is your school like? I'm just curious because it seems like you are learning kata very quickly...

Regardless of how fast you learn them, practice them one at a time. Here is what I mean. You can run through the movements for each one and get a good work out, but when you sit down to actually practice the movements in a kata. Pick one and work it for a few months. Just focus on that one kata's applications.

Bassai is incredibly complex. There are alot of skills in it that take time to develop and these skills aren't something you can pick up by just practicing the kata's movements.

Slow down and you'll learn more...

 

[twendkata71]

I did not learn Bassai dai until I was a brown belt. At that time the sensei that I had only allowed us to learn kata two per belt level and every three to six months.

 

[Naha]

That's how we do it. I learned Bassai dai after I received my brown. It and Tekki shodan are the new katas for testing to black.