Basics

[Rainman]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.

I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work. A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however. [/B]

Blocks are pimarily defensive moves employing physical contact to check, deflect, redirect, cushion, or stop an offensive move. Force on force is bad... and painful the way you are thinking of it. You are talking about a striking block or maybe an outward block without stepping off line- even so- there is information that hasn't been supplied to you.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

The factors to force engagement are, when executing a block or strike, physical contact can occur;
{1} when force meets force
{2} when force goes with force
{3} when force meets a neutral force
{4} when a neutral force meets a neutral force

proper usage is what you are after..... there is a need to be able to use all of these depending upon the situation.

:asian:

 

[Doc]

----I'm a first degree brown... hoping for second degree soon, but that's up to my instructor.----

Or maybe it's the other way around.

-----I've gained my philosophy and understanding of the art primarily from my instructor, but also from having the perspective that what works for a man isn't always going to work for a woman.----

I disagree. Properly executed technique works. Perhaps women sometimes have to be technically more correct because they can't "muscle" their way through, but no difference the way I teach.

-----regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. ------

From my perspective that too is incorrect. If that were the case, than the stronger of the two would always win.

-----If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.----

Parries are not always a good idea. I see what you're saying. You've been taught the stronger one will always win when blocking. This is definitely not true, but you would have to be in front of me to have me prove it to you.

-----I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work.----

Obviously not the way you've been taught.

----A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however.----

Parries are very dangerous when used improperly or in place of a properly executed block.

 

[Doc]

-----and sometimes you do need to adapt basics to the student, especially if the student has some kind of disability.-----

No you do not. Basics when altered are no longer basics. You cannot adapt them, you may only adapt the application.

------have you ever tried teaching someone with no hands to throw a punch? you adapt and turn what you know of your basics and your knowledge of the art, and change the basics to work for someone with that kind of disability.-----

Because a person has no hand does not mean you teach the mechanics of punching differently. You never change basics. You either omit them altogether or adapt the application. You cannot teach a person without legs to kick so you omit "kicking" with the legs. However a person without a hand can learn to punch with the end of their forearm exactly as if they had a hand only shorter in reach. Adapt the application, never the basics. To do so with make them worthless.

 

[Zoran]

One of the things I found about some Kenpoists when they throw a block is they neglect there foot work. When I am defending against an attack, I try to avoid the strike by using foot work and changing my body position. Combining this with a good block is ideal.

Also, I preferr circular blocks for "force meets force". I find them to be faster and stronger than the traditional block. Example; a extended outward block is done by describing a circle. Compared to the traditional version done with a chamber.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



3rd Brown..... going for 2nd brown.... ?

:asian:

nope. my school counts first degree (plain belt, or one black stripe on brown belt if you really want to wear it), second degree (two black stripes) and third degree (three black stripes).

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up, our ranks go:

white
orange (no yellow belt)
purple
blue
green
first brown
second brown
third brown
first black
second black
third black
fourth black
etc...

 

[Rich Parsons]

As some here have already said a block
can be met with force to force.

This does not mean that the stronger one
always wins. In Physics F=MA or Force is equal
the Mass multiplied by the acceleration.

Now to those that point out foot work, is correct
if the attacker is only using upper body strength
and not bode mechanics, and the defender uses
proper technique including foot and body, then
the actual 'mass' of the force could be heavier
from the defender even if they are physically
smaller than the attacker.

As for women not being able to execute a technique
due to strength, I agree with the post here
that men generally rely on their basic attribute
of strength, and that women are usually
technically better.

Whenever I find myself using strength, I always
step back and try to see what I am forgetting
to execute properly.

Just for your reference I am 6'3" and about 265
lbs. or 190.5 cm and 120.45 kgs.

Just my point of view.

Rich

 

[Klondike93]

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up

Sure it does. The brown belt ranks are counting down to black.

TKD is done this way, you start at 9th gup and go to 1st gup then you go from 1st dan to 9th dan (usually in about 3yrs ).





:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Nightingale,

Force meeting force? An example, an upward block, is never meeting the attack with "the same" amount of force. I emphasize deflection as the block travels up the centerline of the body in an uppercut punch position, rotating at the appropriate time to strike the opponent's decending arm. This rotation is synchronized with the forearm "bracing" at a 45 degree from the humorous and a fist to a fist and a half above and in front of the forhead. This provides a bracing angle as you settle into your stance providing the foundation or base for this striking block. (I also try to encourage advanced students to block at or slightly above the elbow, where the nerve passes near the surface.)

This is a different block from the sweeping upward block that Shotokan and Tae-Kwon-Do teach. They truely meet force with force at a 90 degree angle. It is a bone-block that hurts both people. I know because I did it for years.

I understand why you prefer parries and redirecting an attack, but a properly executed basic can be just as effective regardless of size. If you incorporate the appropriate maneauvers, principles and concepts the blocks, as taught work. Doctor Chapel may have come on a little strong, but I think that is what he was implying ... then again, maybe not - I do not do SubLevel-4, but do know where the nerves are on the human body. This is important in not exposing or hurting ours, while striking the opponent's correctly and effectively. It is not just a strength thing, that is the difference in Kenpo and all the other Martial Arts I have studied.

Michael B.
UKS-Texas

P.S. Glad to see you here Dr. Chapel

 

[Klondike93]

I had just made black belt in TKD and swithced to kenpo and the first thing I had to do was learn how to block (this was back in 1987).

Kenpo taught me how to utilize proper bone alignment when blocking and to avoid blocking at 90 degree angles. Much more efficent in my opinion.


:asian:

 

[C.E.Jackson]

In the bennining there were only two ranks:
Student
Master

Then in America, Interem ranks were developed to satisfy American's need for recognition for progression such as we have in school - first grade - second grade - etc.

The specific color order varies from system to system. Some common colors are:

Orange = Novice
Green = Intermediate
Brown/Red = Advanced/ Skilled
Black = Expert


The Traditional American Kenpo Ranks as I know them

9th kyu White
8th kyu Yellow
7th kyu Orange
6th kyu Purple
5th kyu Blue
4th kyu Green
3rd kyu Brown (3 kyu = 3rd Degree)
2nd kyu Brown (2 kyu = 2nd Degree)
1st kyu Brown (1 kyu = 1st Degree)

1st dan Black (1st dan = 1st Degree)
2nd dan Black (2nd dan = 2nd Degree)
3rd dan Black (etc.)
4th dan Black
etc.


As you can see under black count "down" to black
and Black count "up".

It's like the colors are negitive numbers counting "down" toward "0"
and black are positive numbers counting "up" from "0".

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

nope. my school counts first degree (plain belt, or one black stripe on brown belt if you really want to wear it), second degree (two black stripes) and third degree (three black stripes).

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up, our ranks go:

white ~ orange (no yellow belt) ~ purple ~ blue ~ green ~ first brown ~ second brown ~ third brown ~ first black etc...

Ok........ If that is how your instructor has changed it for "your" studio...... so be it (I respect his decision) ....... If I'm not mistaken Mr. Brock is an American Kenpo Stylist, whose instructor was Bob White who was under the late Bob Perry who was under Mr. Ed Parker and all were promoted under his system which is White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd Brown, 2nd Brown, 1st Brown, then 1st thru 10th Black.

Lets look at the historical roots as to why "IT DOES MAKE SENSE" the way "most all" the rest of the world views the brown belt titles.

The "belt system" Ed Parker uses is one of the few Japanese rooted items like the Uniform, we all still use that is not American.
In the Japanese system the students of the art are divided into two categories - those of the "KYU" rank (meaning = class) and those of the "DAN" rank (meaning = step). The two classes mirror each other in that, they both have set up 10 different primary ranks, the .......

1st Kyu rank is: Ju-kyu ~ (10th class student)
2nd Kyu rank is: Ku-kyu ~ (9th Class Student)
3rd Kyu rank is: Hachi-kyu ~ (8th Class Student)
4th Kyu rank is: Sichi-kyu ~ (7th Class Student)
5th Kyu rank is: Rok-kyu ~ (6th Class Student)
6th Kyu rank is: Go-kyu ~ (5th Class Student)
7th Kyu rank is: Yon-kyu ~ (4th Class Student)
8th Kyu rank is: San-kyu ~ (3rd Class Student)
9th Kyu rank is: Nik-kyu ~ (2nd Class Student)
10th Kyu rank is: Ik-kyu ~ (1st Class Student)

Then the Black Belt Ranks (Dans pronounced "DON")

Sho-Dan ~ (1st Step)
Ni-Dan ~ (2nd Step)
San-Dan ~ (3rd Step)
Yon-Dan ~ (4th Step)
Go-Dan ~ (5th Step)
Roku-Dan ~ (6th Step)
Sichi-Dan ~ (7th Step)
Hachi-Dan ~ (8th Step)
Ku-Dan ~ (9th Step)
Ju-Dan ~ (10th Step)

So you can see the last 3 ranks of the "Kyu" classification goes 3rd class then 2nd class then 1st class (which is the highest) even though there are 3 stripes....... yes, realize it is a little bit confusing! Another correlation is that of Naval ranks....... the 3rd Class is lower than that of the 2nd Class and of course 1st Class is the highest rank. Remember, Mr. Parker was in the Coast Guard, so to him and his system it made good sense.

Finally, after much thought and consideratioin..... Mr. Parker finally decided to keep the Japanese belt system but........... to do away with all the Japanese Classifications and names..... so he made all ranks either the color of the belt or just plain degrees.
Starting with 3rd Degree Brown (lowest) then 2nd Degree Brown then 1st Degree Brown. The Blacks are simply 1st degree thru 10th Degree Black Belt ....... of course these are for HIS system.

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

that makes a little more sense...

how do you show that with stripes on a brown belt then?

three = three stripes then take away one for two, and one stripe for one?

or does a first degree have three stripes?

 

[C.E.Jackson]

First degree brown has 3 stripes = 1st kyu - go figure. LOL

 

[Nightingale]

I think that may be why somebody back in my kenpo lineage changed it... having three stripes but being a first degree is kinda confusing...

 

[C.E.Jackson]

I'ts also confusing that there is no "standard" for some the placement of some of the colors (other than orange, green, brown, black). That is why I don't use all of the colors that so many others use. I just award Yellow, Orange (three levels), Green (three levels), Brown (three levels), and apprentice Black (three levels) and Black Belt. Black Belt being awarded to those who complete ALL the 250+ Self Defense Techniques and ALL forms 1-6.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I think that may be why somebody back in my kenpo lineage changed it... having three stripes but being a first degree is kinda confusing...

 

[C.E.Jackson]

Speaking of Belts... When do I get a Yellow Belt around this place???? :rofl:

 

[C.E.Jackson]

Never mind!!! I figgured it out LOL

Originally posted by C.E.Jackson

Speaking of Belts... When do I get a Yellow Belt around this place???? :rofl:

 

[C.E.Jackson]

WOW!!! After 30+ years of blood, sweat, and more bruises than I can count.... I finally get rank!!!!
Wait that didn't sound right???:rofl:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Ok........ If that is how your instructor has changed it for "your" studio...... so be it (I respect his decision) ....... If I'm not mistaken Mr. Brock is an American Kenpo Stylist, whose instructor was Bob White who was under the late Bob Perry who was under Mr. Ed Parker and all were promoted under his system which is White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd Brown, 2nd Brown, 1st Brown, then 1st thru 10th Black.

Lets look at the historical roots as to why "IT DOES MAKE SENSE" the way "most all" the rest of the world views the brown belt titles.

The "belt system" Ed Parker uses is one of the few Japanese rooted items like the Uniform, we all still use that is not American.
In the Japanese system the students of the art are divided into two categories - those of the "KYU" rank (meaning = class) and those of the "DAN" rank (meaning = step). The two classes mirror each other in that, they both have set up 10 different primary ranks, the .......

1st Kyu rank is: Ju-kyu ~ (10th class student)
2nd Kyu rank is: Ku-kyu ~ (9th Class Student)
3rd Kyu rank is: Hachi-kyu ~ (8th Class Student)
4th Kyu rank is: Sichi-kyu ~ (7th Class Student)
5th Kyu rank is: Rok-kyu ~ (6th Class Student)
6th Kyu rank is: Go-kyu ~ (5th Class Student)
7th Kyu rank is: Yon-kyu ~ (4th Class Student)
8th Kyu rank is: San-kyu ~ (3rd Class Student)
9th Kyu rank is: Nik-kyu ~ (2nd Class Student)
10th Kyu rank is: Ik-kyu ~ (1st Class Student)

Then the Black Belt Ranks (Dans pronounced "DON")

Sho-Dan ~ (1st Step)
Ni-Dan ~ (2nd Step)
San-Dan ~ (3rd Step)
Yon-Dan ~ (4th Step)
Go-Dan ~ (5th Step)
Roku-Dan ~ (6th Step)
Sichi-Dan ~ (7th Step)
Hachi-Dan ~ (8th Step)
Ku-Dan ~ (9th Step)
Ju-Dan ~ (10th Step)

So you can see the last 3 ranks of the "Kyu" classification goes 3rd class then 2nd class then 1st class (which is the highest) even though there are 3 stripes....... yes, realize it is a little bit confusing! Another correlation is that of Naval ranks....... the 3rd Class is lower than that of the 2nd Class and of course 1st Class is the highest rank. Remember, Mr. Parker was in the Coast Guard, so to him and his system it made good sense.

Finally, after much thought and consideratioin..... Mr. Parker finally decided to keep the Japanese belt system but........... to do away with all the Japanese Classifications and names..... so he made all ranks either the color of the belt or just plain degrees.
Starting with 3rd Degree Brown (lowest) then 2nd Degree Brown then 1st Degree Brown. The Blacks are simply 1st degree thru 10th Degree Black Belt ....... of course these are for HIS system.

:asian:

:rofl: STOP SHOWING OFF!