It's concept's, principles, & theories. I think.
Jason Farnsworth
Jason Farnsworth
I was wondering that myself, but was afraid to ask in case it was something I should know and would feel really stupid for not knowing...
OP
OP
Rainman
Guest
concepts, theories, principles = ctp, tcp, cpt... 
R
Rob_Broad
Guest
I believe repitition is the key to good basics, and then studying them form different perspectives. The key to basics is finding a way to relate it to what the person already knows, then you have an easier time getting them across correctly.
LOL, but, I think everyone is getting on the right track now.
I did not mean earlier that everyone should give up their 'training secrets' or anything, just that i did not think the original post was being addressed very well and wanted to try to get people going.
At the end of the day, we, the teachers, are not going to be there to actually fight for our students, so we had best prepare them. And I think we all agree basics are the key to this.
I always say that any idiot can learn martial arts, as long as that individual is motivated to do so. Just drilling the basics over and over may make the basics look real good, but they also might bore a student to death.
I say do the basics in a variety of ways. Start simple and get creatice. That is not only how we keep students motivated, but also make our stuff practical, by putting it to use, in a variety of situations, because, really, you never know where or when or how you, or more importantly here, your student, is going to be attacked!
I did not mean earlier that everyone should give up their 'training secrets' or anything, just that i did not think the original post was being addressed very well and wanted to try to get people going.
At the end of the day, we, the teachers, are not going to be there to actually fight for our students, so we had best prepare them. And I think we all agree basics are the key to this.
I always say that any idiot can learn martial arts, as long as that individual is motivated to do so. Just drilling the basics over and over may make the basics look real good, but they also might bore a student to death.
I say do the basics in a variety of ways. Start simple and get creatice. That is not only how we keep students motivated, but also make our stuff practical, by putting it to use, in a variety of situations, because, really, you never know where or when or how you, or more importantly here, your student, is going to be attacked!
S
Sandor
Guest
Video?
Any of you folks consider video for a 'different' perspective/tool for refining basics?
For example, tape yourself doing the forms three times, each time from a different point, say 12:00, 3:00 and any of the 45's. Or take one of the tech lists and run through in the air and then on a person(slow then faster). Replay it and then YOU can be the one making some fixes. Nothing quite like seeing yourself and being the one saying 'Hey, your doing it wrong!'
Peace,
Sandor
Any of you folks consider video for a 'different' perspective/tool for refining basics?
For example, tape yourself doing the forms three times, each time from a different point, say 12:00, 3:00 and any of the 45's. Or take one of the tech lists and run through in the air and then on a person(slow then faster). Replay it and then YOU can be the one making some fixes. Nothing quite like seeing yourself and being the one saying 'Hey, your doing it wrong!'
Peace,
Sandor
S
Sandor
Guest
Roland,
Boredom can be real bad in class. Sucks the energy right out of the room.
I like to 'disguise' repetition for drilling in an idea. For example take any kick and work it in the air, then work it in a combo in the air, then take a different combo to the pads for a few more reps and finish off with a 'carrot on a stick' type timing/coordination drill on the pads.
Working through a cycle like that takes a student up in the high rep range for a given activity and does a good job of aleviating boredom.
Enjoy the secret decoder ring
Peace,
Sandor
Boredom can be real bad in class. Sucks the energy right out of the room.
I like to 'disguise' repetition for drilling in an idea. For example take any kick and work it in the air, then work it in a combo in the air, then take a different combo to the pads for a few more reps and finish off with a 'carrot on a stick' type timing/coordination drill on the pads.
Working through a cycle like that takes a student up in the high rep range for a given activity and does a good job of aleviating boredom.
Enjoy the secret decoder ring
Peace,
Sandor
OP
OP
Rainman
Guest
You yourself have not added one tool (Concept, theory or principle). Of course basics can be done different ways... Then it is not the same basic anyomre is it? Take method. If is side thrust kick is changed to a whipping side thrust kick with the whip being internal it becomes a little different. POO or point of origin from natural weapon (foot) to target is still a strainght line (and the knee still unfolds). One difference is the whip comes back faster by its very nature-- and you finish.
1000 times slow for one time fast. If the perspectives you speak of are layering the tools of the trade over the simple movements of a strike, parry, etc.
:asian:
Doc
Senior Master
Excellent string of questions, and the problem with basics is a simple and complex one at the same time. They must be taught by someone who is truly knowledgeable, and those individuals are as rare as a full bottle of beer at Gou's party. Everyone thinks they know basics, most are not even close. Or their "understanding" doesn't get beyond a punch and a kick.
Really good questions and thought process.:asian:
I've videotaped myself before, but only for kata, just so I can see how my form looks without the distraction of actually doing it at the same time.
The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.
I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques, because some basics are based on strength (blocks) , while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move.
The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.
I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques, because some basics are based on strength (blocks) , while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move.
OP
OP
Rainman
Guest
Nice to see you here Dr. C!
I practice basics daily and am always updating my thoughts toward a particular movement. If we go back to the suggestion of loading a basic here are some of the things we might get:
Alignment= bone and muscle groups (Nightengale got that one)
Rotation and counter rotation = Micheal B (+ quite a few more)
POO or point of origin
path= vertical, horizontal, diagonal
method=snapping, whipping, thrusting, sliceing, roundhousing,hooking + ?
back up mass
bracing angle/ see alignment
gravitational marriage/ see alignment
body momentum
extension of weapon= around 70-90%
breath control/?
erect carriage
balance
postion/?
angle of insidence
Some things to consider
:asian:
Can I add a couple.
How about the ripping effect as your practicing your basics. The ripping coming from one hand going out as the other is coming back.
Reverse motion.
Some people may use clockwise or counter clockwise rotation.
Point of reference when understanding the target in which you want to strike.
Those are just some I have seen. Hope that may help someone out.
Jason Farnsworth
How about the ripping effect as your practicing your basics. The ripping coming from one hand going out as the other is coming back.
Reverse motion.
Some people may use clockwise or counter clockwise rotation.
Point of reference when understanding the target in which you want to strike.
Those are just some I have seen. Hope that may help someone out.
Jason Farnsworth
OP
OP
Rainman
Guest
Yes that was a partial list for anyone and everyone to add to.
Hopefully that's what were here for.
Doc
Senior Master
Originally posted by nightingale8472
----I've videotaped myself before, but only for kata, just so I can see how my form looks without the distraction of actually doing it at the same time. ----
While I commend you for your efforts, aesthetics are not the answer from the laymans point of view.
----The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.-----
This is obviously a good idea and will help you tremendously, although limited with regard to the totality of human movement. But, someone has to teach you the movement and then observe you until you began to get it right more than wrong without correction, but you can never practice alone without the requisite knowledge of an advanced teacher observing and measuring against human interaction and results. I know this goes against everything in the "martial arts industry" where everyone is a "teacher" and the system encourages such activity. I was having this same conversation with Gene LaBell, Benny Urquidez, and Richard Norton last weekend at lunch. They allobserved the same thing but Gene said it best. He observed, "Martial artists like to think what they do is special and different with its own set of special rules." It's not.
----I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. -----
Good form as you say has a very important meaning at it's core. Understanding the basics is the difficult part for most in this industry. There are very few trainers and teachers.
----Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, -----
Rarely. There has been a geat misunderstanding in the teaching of Mr. Parker. You don't adapt "basics." What you adapt (in Motion-Kenpo) is the conceptual "application" of those basics to the individual's preference by design.
-----but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques,-----
What level are you? You seem to understand things many seniors haven't figured out yet. (Mostly because it would require more education in an area they are already supposed to be experts in.)
------..... because some basics are based on strength (blocks) ,------
Gotcha on this one. Basics are NEVER based on strength, especially blocks. Unfortunately you would have to see me for me to prove that to you.
-----while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), -----
Speed is not as much of an issue as most think and is actually a byproduct of proper training and study.
------and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move. -------
No, basics are basics and strength is a non-factor in the reasoning for their execution. Movement is important but done properly everyone should move the same except in Motion-Kenpo which allows personal tailoring of movement. A simplistic example: Imagine a basketball team and during practice the coach tells everyone they can shoot a jump shot anyway they like. With rare exception, all great jump shooters look the same in basic execution for a reason. There is only ONE right way to do it and it's the same for all human physical movement measured against the yardstick of maximum efficency and results. Those with "poor mechanics" perform poorly whether it's "free throws" or a "J." Top athletes always seek the top trainers to teach them the proper way to do things, and the numbers that do are relatively small. The same is true in Kenpo. Very very small.
----I've videotaped myself before, but only for kata, just so I can see how my form looks without the distraction of actually doing it at the same time. ----
While I commend you for your efforts, aesthetics are not the answer from the laymans point of view.
----The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.-----
This is obviously a good idea and will help you tremendously, although limited with regard to the totality of human movement. But, someone has to teach you the movement and then observe you until you began to get it right more than wrong without correction, but you can never practice alone without the requisite knowledge of an advanced teacher observing and measuring against human interaction and results. I know this goes against everything in the "martial arts industry" where everyone is a "teacher" and the system encourages such activity. I was having this same conversation with Gene LaBell, Benny Urquidez, and Richard Norton last weekend at lunch. They allobserved the same thing but Gene said it best. He observed, "Martial artists like to think what they do is special and different with its own set of special rules." It's not.
----I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. -----
Good form as you say has a very important meaning at it's core. Understanding the basics is the difficult part for most in this industry. There are very few trainers and teachers.
----Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, -----
Rarely. There has been a geat misunderstanding in the teaching of Mr. Parker. You don't adapt "basics." What you adapt (in Motion-Kenpo) is the conceptual "application" of those basics to the individual's preference by design.
-----but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques,-----
What level are you? You seem to understand things many seniors haven't figured out yet. (Mostly because it would require more education in an area they are already supposed to be experts in.)
------..... because some basics are based on strength (blocks) ,------
Gotcha on this one. Basics are NEVER based on strength, especially blocks. Unfortunately you would have to see me for me to prove that to you.
-----while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), -----
Speed is not as much of an issue as most think and is actually a byproduct of proper training and study.
------and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move. -------
No, basics are basics and strength is a non-factor in the reasoning for their execution. Movement is important but done properly everyone should move the same except in Motion-Kenpo which allows personal tailoring of movement. A simplistic example: Imagine a basketball team and during practice the coach tells everyone they can shoot a jump shot anyway they like. With rare exception, all great jump shooters look the same in basic execution for a reason. There is only ONE right way to do it and it's the same for all human physical movement measured against the yardstick of maximum efficency and results. Those with "poor mechanics" perform poorly whether it's "free throws" or a "J." Top athletes always seek the top trainers to teach them the proper way to do things, and the numbers that do are relatively small. The same is true in Kenpo. Very very small.
OP
OP
Rainman
Guest
Alignment, placement, position, point. System management + 1 or 3 other things I know of. Now about the GCM....:rofl:
:asian:
:asian:
I'm a first degree brown... hoping for second degree soon, but that's up to my instructor. I've gained my philosophy and understanding of the art primarily from my instructor, but also from having the perspective that what works for a man isn't always going to work for a woman.
regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.
I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work. A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however.
regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.
I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work. A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however.
and sometimes you do need to adapt basics to the student, especially if the student has some kind of disability. have you ever tried teaching someone with no hands to throw a punch? you adapt and turn what you know of your basics and your knowledge of the art, and change the basics to work for someone with that kind of disability.
I said basicsSOMETIMES need to be adapted to the student, but that the MAJORITY of the time it is the technique that needs to be altered, not the basic.
I said basicsSOMETIMES need to be adapted to the student, but that the MAJORITY of the time it is the technique that needs to be altered, not the basic.
With people of disability, read other perspective,
the instructor may have to review their
approach to demonstrate or to explain the
technique.
i.e. a blind person and self defense, the blind
person will rely on their hearing and also their
touch once they are in contact with the opponent
more than the sighted person who is learning
the same technique for the first time.
I have found it interesting to work with people
of different perspectives, it really enlightens
oneself.
Best Regards
Rich
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
3rd Brown..... going for 2nd brown.... ?
:asian:
