Basics of Kenpo

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Well first of all, if I debate somthing with someone I not only learn from the guy I'm talking to but then sombody like Robert will bury my "opponent" with a mountain of evidence to support my claim. Sometimes he turns it on me and refutes my claim.Either way I come away from the whole experience with food for thought. Martial artist without egos... now thats an oxy-moron. Thats right up there with honest polititions and hookers with a heart of gold. All three are figments of your imagination. Sure we all learn to tone it down, some of us more than others. As for Clyde, I feel his beliefs can be a little over the line sometimes and we owe it to him to see if we can chase him back. I'm almost never successfull but I feel I won a small victory by getting him to admit that a school that teaches more techs than his may not be better than his. This negates his prior argument about his school being better than schools with less techs; so, as I've stated, its a small victory. As for people thinking that I'm overstepping my bounds debating with sixth degrees, I suppose they wouln't even engage me in conversation if it bothered them so much. It would bother some I admit but they aren't on this forum are they?

Hey, I know an Honest Politician, really. I've also met the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy, really.


I wouldn't claim claim a victory over the technique issue, I just believe that teaching all the techniques at the right level makes you a better martial artists for that level. More BS techniques or less BS techniques will only confuse you. But, If you want to say you won, you won.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
The problem is that fundamentally the premises on which these arguments are being conducted are dead-end, sterile cliches. We can't figure out what we want to figure out, because of Mr. Parker's cliche about, "I'd rather have one technique that works than an hundred that don't," being taken as something more than the cheap homily it was meant to be.

And before anybody jumps down my throat, what is NOT cheap, dead-end cliche is the kenpo system, its concepts, its principles. Any saying was just a saying, just an easy way to communicate, not Holy Writ. And it was never meant to be anything more, I hope.

In other words, we're stuck because of the way we've got the argument set up.

Here's one way out: how do you teach students to look beyond the sayings, and beyond the necessary techniques, sets and forms?

Thanks,

Cheap homily... Thats a good one. Keep them jokes commin'. Seriosly though I think Mr. Parker was dead serious.

 

[rmcrobertson]

OKAAAY, I ate. So let's try this, from (I believe) Chekov (no, not the Weapons Officer), to illustrate a) where we're dead-ended, and b) the difference between a homily and practice:

"Any fool can respond to a crisis. It's this day to day living that gets us down."

It isn't in the Big Pronouncements that kenpo lies. It's in day-to-day work.

Or to paraphrase Mr. Tatum, "A teacher is not moved by the claims, but by the passion, of a student." I'd add that that "passion," isn't enacted by one or two bursts of energy, either. It's enacted by continuing to get up.

So to this extent, I can agree that the issue is one of practice.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I think that having a healthly and honorable debate is great. As long as it is health and honorable. It helps us all do the one thing that Mr Parker wanted all of us to do and that is to think and be open to new ideas and new concepts.

I am by no mean anyone to say who should think or act any certian way. However, the one thing that just about all of the true martial arts masters have in common is personalities traits such and honor, courage, code(If you don't understand this one the go put on a pair of boots and serve and you will understand.), loyality, patiences, caring, iron will, and of course the love of thier art and their students. If greatness is what we aspire to be then should we not only learn from our masters from a technical point of veiw but also from the qualities that made them who there are?

There is so much knowledge here and I think it it awsome that we have a place to meet have have these discussions. However, if we are teachers should we all not be receptive from others that are also teachers?

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
I think that having a healthly and honorable debate is great. As long as it is health and honorable. It helps us all do the one thing that Mr Parker wanted all of us to do and that is to think and be open to new ideas and new concepts.

I am by no mean anyone to say who should think or act any certian way. However, the one thing that just about all of the true martial arts masters have in common is personalities traits such and honor, courage, code(If you don't understand this one the go put on a pair of boots and serve and you will understand.), loyality, patiences, caring, iron will, and of course the love of thier art and their students. If greatness is what we aspire to be then should we not only learn from our masters from a technical point of veiw but also from the qualities that made them who there are?

There is so much knowledge here and I think it it awsome that we have a place to meet have have these discussions. However, if we are teachers should we all not be receptive from others that are also teachers?

1) I did serve, 11 years to be exact with an honorable discharge. I know all about loyalty, honor, respect, and honesty. I've always expressed an honest opinion of what I think and do, but you can't please everyone.

2)Yes, we should be receptive to others that may have something to offer us, as of yet, I've only found one. I'm still searching for others, hence the research of videotaped seminars and lessons. I have always taken this approach because it will benefit not only me, but my students, to be aware of what others are doing.


Don't think I don't have respect for these gentlemen, they've put in many years to hone their skills and spent many hours on the mat. This is not to say that I haven't done my time on the mats either, and played just as hard if not more.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

HMMMM.....

I guess we all have our own paths as well as our opinions and ideas on who to train with, how to train and where to train. Maybe, what is imortant is that we all continue to train and train with focus, desire, guts and comitment and pass on our knowledge to those who seek a higher knowledge of kenpo.

I would be very interested in seeing your tapes when they come out so send me a line and I will invest the cash because I am sure you have lots of kenpo knowledge to offer manny of us.

However, I still do not understand why someone such as you with all of your knowledge, rank and experience would speak about others in a negative tone. I understand being loyal and proud of your lineage and I totaly understand that thinking process. However, is that blabk belt behavior?

Please do not think that I am trying to be disrespectful because I would never conduct myself in that way. I am just a little fish in a big pond trying to learn as much as I can about all that I can.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
HMMMM.....

I guess we all have our own paths as well as our opinions and ideas on who to train with, how to train and where to train. Maybe, what is imortant is that we all continue to train and train with focus, desire, guts and comitment and pass on our knowledge to those who seek a higher knowledge of kenpo.

I would be very interested in seeing your tapes when they come out so send me a line and I will invest the cash because I am sure you have lots of kenpo knowledge to offer manny of us.

However, I still do not understand why someone such as you with all of your knowledge, rank and experience would speak about others in a negative tone. I understand being loyal and proud of your lineage and I totaly understand that thinking process. However, is that blabk belt behavior?

Please do not think that I am trying to be disrespectful because I would never conduct myself in that way. I am just a little fish in a big pond trying to learn as much as I can about all that I can.

You're absolutely correct about seeking and passing on knowledge and I couldn't agree more.

What is Black Belt behavior? I've heard this expression many times and for the life of me can't figure it out, would you mind expressing your viewpoint on this?

I have said nothing negative about anyone, the truth, yes, I'm known for it. It may appear negative to some but enlightening to others and I'm forever being admonished for it and can't figure out why.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

I know the feeling

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
This is not to say that I haven't done my time on the mats either, and played just as hard if not more.

Clyde,

Can you give us a timeline on your involvement with Kenpo specifically? I know your bio says 1976 for Shotokan. Didn't you do some time with LaRoux and played with JKD as well? When did you actually start with Mr. Tatum? Early to mid-80's? You were one of the house guys right? How long were you training at the house before he moved back into a studio? Wes was already there when you started right? What yrs did you get your 1st Dan thru 5th?

Thanks, jb:asian:

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

WOW,

I am not sure of how to respond to your question Sir. I am pretty suprised that you are asking me what black belt behavior is. I am sure that you being a 6th dan understand what it is to be a black belt and how a true black belt should carry themselves and act.

Do you agree that being a black belt is NOT only about your knowledge, understanding and ability but also passing on the knowledge and teaching your students proper actions and behavior toward others?:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
WOW,

I am not sure of how to respond to your question Sir. I am pretty suprised that you are asking me what black belt behavior is. I am sure that you being a 6th dan understand what it is to be a black belt and how a true black belt should carry themselves and act.

Do you agree that being a black belt is NOT only about your knowledge, understanding and ability but also passing on the knowledge and teaching your students proper actions and behavior toward others?:asian:

When is it my responsibility to teach people good manners, they either have them or they don't? I carry myself quite well and act according to the environment and situation. If you would be so kind as to tell what Black Belt behavior is, if you know. Your posts imply you do and I've always been curious as I hear that all the time.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jeffkyle]

I have seen a wide variety of types of people who adorn a black belt. I have seen some real $^@$%holes and I have also seen some of the nicest people I have ever met. I have seen some real tough ones and some wimpy ones....some that work out and some that don't...I have heard of black belts that go to church and some that go to jail.
I have ALSO seen these characteristics in lower belts too!!!

Behavior varies, just like every other aspect of us vary! Some can accept it and some can't.

My idea of good "Black Belt Behavior" is probably different than everyone elses.

 

[ikenpo]

bump I thought this was a pretty cool question that got missed the first time..

quote: Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
This is not to say that I haven't done my time on the mats either, and played just as hard if not more.

Clyde,

Can you give us a timeline on your involvement with Kenpo specifically? I know your bio says 1976 for Shotokan. Didn't you do some time with LaRoux and played with JKD as well? When did you actually start with Mr. Tatum? Early to mid-80's? You were one of the house guys right? How long were you training at the house before he moved back into a studio? Wes was already there when you started right? What yrs did you get your 1st Dan thru 5th?

Thanks, jb

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
bump I thought this was a pretty cool question that got missed the first time..



Clyde,

Can you give us a timeline on your involvement with Kenpo specifically? I know your bio says 1976 for Shotokan. Didn't you do some time with LaRoux and played with JKD as well? When did you actually start with Mr. Tatum? Early to mid-80's? You were one of the house guys right? How long were you training at the house before he moved back into a studio? Wes was already there when you started right? What yrs did you get your 1st Dan thru 5th?

Thanks, jb

Hey Jason, saw this post last time and forgot to respond, typical of me LOL.

I met Vic late in 1986 or early 87 and tested for Brown with him in 1989. He was teaching at the AF base and I happen to live around the corner from him, literally, I could throw a rock and hit his house. We got pretty tight in that time and did lots of work. When we would drive down to the BB class in LA we'd be doing sticky hands, not the safest thing to do LOL. We had a falling out in 1990 and I found Larry, he was still teaching a ton of students from his house, his is garage was matted with a heavy bag. We moved into the studio in 1992 and Rick Jeffcoat was the asst. instructor there. I'll never forget those days and those I trained there with some of the best people I'd ever seen. Wes, Rick, Maria, Brian, Don, Mike and many, many more. At the time I started with Larry I was a Brown Belt and he started me off doing Short 1 to my dismay. Little did I realize how much work I had to do on this form much less the rest of what I was doing. I played catch up for months to get the material and do it right. I was promoted to Black in June of 1991, probably a little ahead of what I feel I should of been, especially seeing the quality of his other BB's, but he let me grow into the rank. I wished I could give dates of the other promos but I don't have my diplomas in front of me. During my second Black test one person in particular had a huge impact on what I was doing, his name was Trevor Haines out of Sacramento. Damn, this guy had it all, skill and knowledge and he was testing for his third or fourth at the time. I stood in awe as Larry asked the questions and he had the answer for everything while I stood there with my finger in my butt and I swore it would never happen again. He was probably the impetus for me to get it together and find out what Kenpo really was now. I had learned the system but still trying to understand it. I asked Larry all the right questions and he had all the right answers and I assimilated the material to new levels. He would give me insight into one area and I ran with it to find where it all fit in the system. I was happy with this new found knowledge and skill and wanted more, I guess that's how I ended up doing what I am doing now. My forte' in Kenpo is reversals (Kenpo techniques done ineffectively are very easy to reverse or cancel), and the equation formula. I'm very lucky to have Larry as my instructor for this long and still be in awe of his talent and knowledge and I don't plan on giving it up anytime soon LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I wished I could give dates of the other promos but I don't have my diplomas in front of me

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Thank you for the candid reply. It is clear that you have agressively pursued your desire to learn the system. I do have a point of reference question. When were the LTKKA tech tapes done? The copyright is 1993 and it looks like you were a 1st Degree during that taping. Were they taped in 1991? If not, were you a 1st in 1993? I guess what I'm asking is if you get a chance to look at you certs. (and it isn't too personal) I'd still be interested to know what kind of timeline your advancement took?

start 87 - Mr. LaRoux
start 90 - Mr. Tatum
1st black - 1991
2nd black -?
3rd black - ?
4th black - ?
5th black - ?
6th black - 2002

You'd be surprised how many IM's I got from other people asking if I was "being messy" or "trying to start something with Clyde". And that isn't the case. I just know that you are very good about sharing information and this is a way for me to put some things in a timeline perspective when I look at "Seniors" and outspoken people in the system. But in all fairness my lineage is here so that people can see that I'm not just asking and not offering any info of my own. You'll notice I'm a much slower learner and have had a few forks in the road. I was 16 in 1986 and a young punk that just liked to fight, I've sense matured "somewhat" (I still like to fight) and at 34 Kenpo has now been a part of me for longer than it hasn't, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, thanks for your time. I've gotten DSL (and head phones )since our last "netmeeting" a couple of years ago. Hopefully we'll set another up another one day.

Respectfully, jb:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Thank you for the candid reply. It is clear that you have agressively pursued your desire to learn the system. I do have a point of reference question. When were the LTKKA tech tapes done? The copyright is 1993 and it looks like you were a 1st Degree during that taping. Were they taped in 1991? If not, were you a 1st in 1993? I guess what I'm asking is if you get a chance to look at you certs. (and it isn't too personal) I'd still be interested to know what kind of timeline your advancement took?


Respectfully, jb:asian:

I think they were filmed in 93 and I think I was a 2nd then but I never wore stripes on my belt until 3rd. Larry insists I wear my belt with stripes nowadays, guess he figures that's the rank he promoted me too and he'd like to see me wear it. I don't even know where I put my diplomas anymore, I did have them all in one place when I had my studio, but that was a few years back and things have gotten moved around since. I don't have my certificate for 6th, it doesn't matter to me cuz I have enough pictures of me with Larry and have been on enough trips with him that everyone knew what I was (that and the pink gi LOL). Don't think that certificates are not important, they are not just pieces of paper with rank on it. I just don't need one. I will make sure I get one for 7th as that seems to be the rank everyone likes to dispute LOL. I have know idea about any ranks after that, since I've got my 5th, rank is not near as important as I use to think it was. That big red bar was a real eye-opener and made me do alot of retrospect concerning the art and how others viewed it and me. I put on rank a little too quickly according to some, and not promoted fast enough to others that I've had to oppurtunity to work out with. I suppose it's only a matter of perspective.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I think they were filmed in 93 and I think I was a 2nd then but I never wore stripes on my belt until 3rd.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Again, thanks for the insight.

jb:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Professor O'Briant:

I also have a respectful question for you regarding time "in the art."

Like Mr. Parker said just because someone is In the Art does not mean that they are At the Art. So it is with me.

My training history is (roughly):
1984-1987 White-Green with Gary Swan and the NCKKA
1987-1991 Joined Army and returned. Tested for 3rd Brown w/Mr. Swan in 1991
1991-1997 Joined Mr. Duffy and the IKKA but averaged 1 class per month until graduating from College and getting a job in Austin. I moved from Austin to San Antonio and back to Austin during this time as well and drove 80miles one way to class for a while during this time.
1997-2003 Sort of "re-started" with Mr. Duffy in what is called EPAK here and was promoted to 2nd Brown in Oct 2003 with Mr. Trejo and Mr. White in attendance for my "surprise" exam/grading. I think Mr. Conatser prompted Mr. Duffy to include me in this belt test. I had actually been told by Mr. Duffy that I would not be testing with this group at his Spirit Camp. I was very surprised.

Thus my 20th year "In the Art" is next year in Aug 2004 but for about 10 of those years I have not trained much at all. I only have about 10 years "At the art."

So my question is:

Approximately how many times a week did you take class at Mr. Tatum's studio? Roughly how many hours per week?

And how many of those hours were with Mr. Tatum? I don't know how Mr. Tatum runs his school. I assume he teaches some Group classes and some Private lessons.

I have no doubt that as a 6th you have significantly more "mat time" than I do and I have always appreciated how you refer to your time on the mat. But I know for sure that there is no way I could have made 6th by now because for example Mr. Swan once required:
2yrs between 1st and 2nd Degree Black,
3yrs between 2nd and 3rd,
and 4yrs between 3rd and 4th

Mr. Duffy I think requires a minimum of 2-3yrs between Black Belt stripes 1-5. I have noticed that Mr. Trejo also supported a timeline like this when his requirements were listed on his website. I have seen other websites that reccomend similar timelines. I don't know how many "mat hours" they are expecting from you during this time.

I hope you can see that I ask this question sincerely and that I'm trying to understand the level of commitment it takes to become a "Senior" Black Belt as Jason said. And as Jason did, I have provided an overview of my training history as well.

I have seen some of Mr. Tatum's videos and I have to say that he seems to be an outstanding instructor. I am just curious as to how much time you have spent with him. Several of your posts have demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the system and it would be motivating to me as I ramp up toward testing for Black Belt next year to get an idea of how much time you have spent developing your skills and commanding knowledge of the system.

Thanks in advance.

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

I just wanted to say that I think that was a good post for my 800th post here on Martial Talk.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Doug, I think I've answered enough questions concerning my rank and as I've said, I was promoted too fast for some and not fast enough for many. The best thing to do is spend some time with me, on the phone for instance, picking my brain, or have me for a seminar some time. I would truly prefer to talk Kenpo and not rank, it's what I am not who I am. Too feel is to believe.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde