Basic tools for all striking art

[drop bear]

To be fair the blokes in the video was doing a silly dance before he hit the floor, watching sylvester and tweetie , and had more chance of getting a blowey off the queen of england, than defending themselves, are you forgetting your key training word for this month, NUANCE

So there is nothing happening in a fight other than one guy sitting down and the other guy throwing kicks?

 

[drop bear]

I've actually tried this against someone in one of my old dojos, who could use it in point sparring (and only point sparring) effectively. As a result, I've tested it out in a few different dojos, and asked others to test it out too. Basically what I've found, is that it works in point sparring if your opponent is not expecting it. So you get a quick shot that they're not expecting, when their shot misses because you're too low for it. But that shot doesn't have any power to it. And stay low long enough to get power rather than just a transition, and you are incredibly open. You've got no backwards or diagonal mobility, so any sort of rush will immediately overwhelm you and screw you up.

The only person I know who managed to make something like that work effectively (i didn't ask him to try it, but he created his own variation), is a black belt in BJJ, and his position involved them overreaching for an attack which allowed him to pull them down and grapple them. If you knew what was coming you wouldn't fall for it (but then he would always submit me in different ways anyway).

If you do mma there is a whole move counter game around striking a guy on the ground while avoiding his counters.

I have tried spinning to stand up and rolling but it is just too slow. I just get nailed.

BJJ has this kind of cool ground vs standing submissions game that I play with but am not good at and involves gramby rolls and stuff. Where you attack with leg locks and stuff.

It's easy really. Just be Gary Tonnen.

 

[Gweilo]

So there is nothing happening in a fight other than one guy sitting down and the other guy throwing kicks?

Again you read this wrong, I can stand and fight, I can fight on the ground, I look for similarities in weak structure, ingrained technique in application, attack the weak points, joints, muscle, nerves, disrupting balance, attacking structure.

 

[Gweilo]

If you do mma there is a whole move counter game around striking a guy on the ground while avoiding his counters.

I have tried spinning to stand up and rolling but it is just too slow. I just get nailed.

BJJ has this kind of cool ground vs standing submissions game that I play with but am not good at and involves gambie rolls and stuff.

Well you aint doing it right then, are you

 

[drop bear]

Again you read this wrong, I can stand and fight, I can fight on the ground, I look for similarities in weak structure, ingrained technique in application, attack the weak points, joints, muscle, nerves, disrupting balance, attacking structure.

So unlike everyone else?

 

[Gweilo]

So unlike everyone else?

 

[drop bear]

Well you aint doing it right then, are you

Again I would have to see someone doing it right first though. It is not a case of the check this move out. Shows a drill and thinks it will work.

It has to work.

I train with guys who don't let me do a lot of things I would like to do.

The idea that a spin on the ground is going to beat a step and strike is pretty ambitious.

 

[drop bear]

Yep like anyone else.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can stand and fight, I can fight on the ground, I look for similarities in weak structure, ingrained technique in application, attack the weak points, joints, muscle, nerves, disrupting balance, attacking structure.

It's fun to discuss MA with you. But when you make statement like this, it's very difficult to continue that discussion any further.

Someone once made a statement, "When I step in, anything that stand in front of me will be destroyed".

What can I say after a statement like that? Nothing!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are you intercepting the leg/foot upon the point of impact, muscle memory is great for the reaction, but not so great if you understand the concept, kick is thrown, regardless of feinting, once your brain/you decide to execute, the process is ingrained, your technique becomes one entity, a kick becomes throw, contact, land, In the process discribed, we attack the striking leg, just as its about to land, explained in brief in this video.the same process onmthe ground.

It might be me, but I don't see what a standing kick defense has to do with mobility/defensive ability on the ground.

 

[Gweilo]

It might be me, but I don't see what a standing kick defense has to do with mobility/defensive ability on the ground.

I took the conversation back to standing, to explain the principle of the ground technique, attacking the striking limb as its about to touch down, tricking the brains process of the executed kick once the centre of mass has changed ( as in the crt video), taking the strikers balance.

 

[Gweilo]

It's fun to discuss MA with you. But when you make statement like this, it's very difficult to continue that discussion any further.

Someone once made a statement, "When I step in, anything that stand in front of me will be destroyed".

What can I say after a statement like that? Nothing!

Dont take my statement as arrogance, because thats not how I wanted it to come across, like you I have processes, these I fundamentally beleive in, I am not perfect, far from it, but I know that these processes work for me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I took the conversation back to standing, to explain the principle of the ground technique, attacking the striking limb as its about to touch down, tricking the brains process of the executed kick once the centre of mass has changed ( as in the crt video), taking the strikers balance.

But attacking the limbs in that way is much easier if you're either both standing or both on the ground. Defending on the ground you're not going to be able to do all that much to mess with their balance unless they choose to overextend themselves or just give you a limb.

Unless there is a serious skill gap. But that's true of almost anything.

 

[drop bear]

But attacking the limbs in that way is much easier if you're either both standing or both on the ground. Defending on the ground you're not going to be able to do all that much to mess with their balance unless they choose to overextend themselves or just give you a limb.

Unless there is a serious skill gap. But that's true of almost anything.

Controlling gravity in a fight is a super power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Controlling gravity in a fight is a super power.

It starts with realizing there is no spoon.

 

[Gweilo]

Controlling gravity in a fight is a super power.

Where did I say controlling gravity?
I was talking about taking the structure at a pivitol moment, based on timing, distance and understanding the physic of human movement, the following is a very very interesting read, but you will have to pay for it as I did, and I do not have permission to publish itbin full or part.

Bodies in Motion: The Physics of Human Movement | InformalScience.org

 

[drop bear]

Where did I say controlling gravity?
I was talking about taking the structure at a pivitol moment, based on timing, distance and understanding the physic of human movement, the following is a very very interesting read, but you will have to pay for it as I did, and I do not have permission to publish itbin full or part.

Bodies in Motion: The Physics of Human Movement | InformalScience.org

You didn't. I am talking about controlling gravity.

It is one of the fundamental forces of the universe. And the only one that can be used in a fight.

Because while you can't fly or shoot lasers from your eyes you can harness gravity and make them deal with your weight.

Which is the difference between fighting off the ground and fighting from standing.

 

[Chris Parker]

If we just look at the striking art, the following tools are needed.

- Jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- Front heel kick, font toe kick, roundhouse kick, side kick.

Should a MA teacher teaches those tools to his students first before get into any solo form training? Those 8 tools can be linked into a short form as:

- Right front heel kick. left front toe kick, right roundhouse kick, right side kick, right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut.

This form then can be repeated and reverse the left and right so left side and right side will be balanced.

- Left front heel kick. right front toe kick, left roundhouse kick, left side kick, left jab, right cross, left hook, right uppercut.

Can we make this short form (or something similar) for all striking art systems on this planet?

Your thought?

My thoughts? That you've missed entirely what makes something a martial art, and are focusing only on your perception of what you think are applicable "techniques" with no understanding of the context or pedagogy...

To be a bit clearer, none of those tools are "needed". And a teacher should teach according to the system they're teaching. And simply stringing things together is a deeply lacking idea for "making a form".

That should belong to the intermediate or advance level training stage. I assume MMA guys don't separate beginner, intermediate, and advance level training.

No, it shouldn't. Much though I loathe agreeing with Drop Bear, understanding the entirety of the technique is important... in Japanese arts, we refer to the concept of "suki" (weaknesses, or openings)... what Drop Bear is talking about is learning the technique (punch, takedown, pin, whatever) as free from those suki as possible... which is absolutely the way it should be done, as soon as possible. It's not an "advanced" or even "intermediate" aspect, it's just how the technique actually works.

Should you study "I came, I saw, I conquered." in your 1st grade English class?

Considering "Veni, Vidi, Vici" is a Latin phrase... probably not?

One of my favor question to MA friends is for each and every technique that you train, do you have such 3 different training stages?

In a number of ways.... look into Shu Ha Ri as one example... but it's not a matter of learning only "hand going forward" as "basic", "rear hand guards" as "intermediate", and "opposite hand grabs and pulls" as "advanced".... each of those can be a complete technique, or can be a lacking one, depending on a lot of other aspects going on.

 

[JP3]

Only in your wettest dreams

Nah, I think he's right. My foot is on the floor, and you're sitting on the floor, so your head is closer to my foot than it would be if you were standing up. I have to move it less distance vertically to kick you in the head, so it's less "work" (physics) to get it to smack your head and uses less energy (more physics) to get it there... so it is easier. I also don't need to worry about my lack of flexibility.

Granted, you ... could... stand up real fast, and then it'd be hard again.

Edited to add... I made my joking post above before reading the rabbit trail you guys took this thread down on pages 2 & 3. I tend to agree with DropBear on the difficulty of learning to fight a standing opponent effectively while you are on the ground. From a "time spent learning" point of view, for me, personally, my training time, which is always limited if by nothing other than the calendar, is most efficitntly used in other ways.

Can you learn "how" to do it? Sure. I can learn to walk around the house on my hands, too, but I don't get where I'm going as fast on my hands as I do on my feet, I'm just not designed that way. Y'all might be, may have knees that bend in both directions and swivel joints in your elbows, I don't know. But for me, it's Much more efficient to learn how to be defensive on he ground against a standing opponent for just long enough to either get them down with me or for me to get back up. I prefer the latter, but the former does work.

But I don't make it an art in and of itself.

 

[Buka]

I've found that the very first movements learned in a new endeavor are the ones most easily retained, the ones that get ingrained the deepest. I keep that in mind when I train raw beginners.

As for head movement, I've always found that a good boxing coach has a better handle on that than any other I've experienced.