"Bad" TKD" looks pretty good to me!

[Earl Weiss]

One thing I'm trying to get away from when I build my own curriculum is rote memorized combinations. I feel the more you rote memorize, the less creativity offered to both the student and teacher.

I have one to two memorized Combo per rank. Using these has a few advantages:
1. Newbie sparring looks like a deer in the headlights so I just tell them "Use A,B,C,D etc."
2. It is concept based examples of varying the level and / or angle of the techniques in the combination to create openings.
3. If you are coaching at a competition you can tell you competitor "A,B,C,D etc"
4. These taught to be the "Building Blocks" of creativity.
5. These are combos "That work" / flow . Creativity is great but it's hard to be creative draining the swamp when you are up to your buttocks in Alligators.

 

[Earl Weiss]

TKD was created as a "national kicking sport" in the fifties for Korea. In context, it makes sense however don't confuse the activity with fighting or self-defense philosophically. Their identity is built around kicking and they will always find a reason to stick to their identity and in demos are very good at it.

FWIW the founder of TK-D in the 1950's liked to respond to this by saying his system had 2000 hand / arm techniques ad 1200 foot techniques. (What made a technique "Different" my simply have been the stance used or a small variation).

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have always wonder, if jab-cross-roundhouse is so useful, why it doesn't exist in most of the MA form? Did those form creators didn't notice it?

Perhaps because Forms are not Sparring and Sparring is not Self defense notwithstanding significant carryovers from one to the other. A common Mantra of TMA is "One Technique For Victory" and yes there is some commentary that the proper translation is "One Opportunity for victory"

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One thing I'm trying to get away from when I build my own curriculum is rote memorized combinations. I feel the more you rote memorize, the less creativity offered to both the student and teacher.

I think most styles have memorized combinations, even if they don't refer to them as such. Boxing gyms I go to have the normal jab cross hook uppercut, jab jab cross, cross double hook, muay thai places have similar, kali has abecedario and the doce methodos, obviously karate and TKD have a ton.

There's a reason for it - it works. There are certain things that work better with the body's dynamics then others, so those get practiced more. And you can use them as a branching off point.
The trap is having too many of them, but simply having rote combinations is not a bad thing.

If looking at a style with 10 belts are so, I'd say 1-3 per rank would be appropriate. Maybe 3-4 at lower ranks and 0-1 by the time you get to the browns.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Lyoto Machida feels the same on kata..

I took io mean the following.

• Kata doesn't train you how to fight. - this is the traditional understanding of kata / forms. If you go back to any traditional martial arts there are historic records of sparring. The concept of "Kata trains you how to fight " is a modern concept and not a traditional one. Point in case., very few of the old teachers who taught martial arts pre 1970 would disagree with this.

• Sparring trains you how to fight. More specifically, sparring should be used to train a person on how to use the techniques found in kata, in the context of fighting. Techniques evolve through sparring. Techniques evolve through sparring against other Martial Arts (System A vs System B). Evolution of Martial arts is simple. It naturally occurs as an adaptation to the elements of the environment that the martial arts system is exposed to. If you want your system to evolve to better handle grappling, then expose it to more grappling (BJJ). If you want your system to evolve to better handle punching, then expose it to more punching (boxing). If you want your system to evovle to better handle kicks, then expose it to more kicking (TKD). These are 3 examples of how the evolution of martial arts work. If you want to your system to evolve to better handle fighting, then you must expose it to more fighting. In most cases for most people this means sparring and sports fighting. This is also very traditional.

If you want to maintain your technique then you will need to do Kata / Form or drill.
If you want to know how to fight using the techniques you train then you must spar and use those techniques in sparring.

All of what was said above is traditional in terms of fighting. The concept of only training kata is not something supported by traditional martial arts training. Personally I think we are lazy in comparison to traditional martial arts training. If anything thing we have cut much of the traditional training out of what is taught in schools in order to make martial arts more appealing to a larger customer base.

More people take boxing for fitness than take boxing to learn how to fight. That pattern is true across all martial arts, even BJJ were some learn BJJ but don't actually apply beyond a sports perspective. I'm sure there are a few BJJ practitioners who feel that they can fight even though they have never experienced being kicked or punched before.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One thing I'm trying to get away from when I build my own curriculum is rote memorized combinations. I feel the more you rote memorize, the less creativity offered to both the student and teacher.

I'm not sure if you used the best word here "creativty". What do you mean by less creativity?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Perhaps because Forms are not Sparring ...

The form that you have learned from your teacher may not designed for sparring. But the forms that you create yourselves can be for sparring.

For example, you can create a form as:

- jab, cross, roundhouse kick.
- hook punch, side kick, spin back fist.
- groin kick, face punch, arm wrap, head lock, front cut.
- foot sweep, arm jam, waist wrap, hip throw.
- ...

The form that you have just created has as much value as you have learned from your teacher (may be more).

IMO, MA training should have different stages:

1. Learning stage.
2. Training stage.
3. Creating stage.

Some people may stay on stage 2 forever. Some people may get into stage 3. To create a new MA technique may be difficult. But to record those fighting skill that you believe is useful, the task should not be too hard.

 

[marvin8]

The form that you have learned from your teacher may not designed for sparring. But the forms that you create yourselves can be for sparring.

For example, you can create a form as:

- jab, cross, roundhouse kick.
- hook punch, side kick, spin back fist.
- groin kick, face punch, arm wrap, head lock, front cut.
- foot sweep, arm jam, waist wrap, hip throw.
- ...

The form that you have just created has as much value as you have learned from your teacher (may be more).

IMO, MA training should have different stages:

1. Learning stage.
2. Training stage.
3. Creating stage.

Some people may stay on stage 2 forever. Some people may get into stage 3. To create a new MA technique may be difficult. But to record those fighting skill that you believe is useful, the task should not be too hard.

It's already been done with a few takedowns. At 8:45, a front cut/osoto gari takedown sequence.

 

[skribs]

I have one to two memorized Combo per rank. Using these has a few advantages:
1. Newbie sparring looks like a deer in the headlights so I just tell them "Use A,B,C,D etc."
2. It is concept based examples of varying the level and / or angle of the techniques in the combination to create openings.
3. If you are coaching at a competition you can tell you competitor "A,B,C,D etc"
4. These taught to be the "Building Blocks" of creativity.
5. These are combos "That work" / flow . Creativity is great but it's hard to be creative draining the swamp when you are up to your buttocks in Alligators.

Regarding 1 & 3, my experience has been that most folks (including myself) can't even hear the coach in striking competition, and if you can, then it's too fast-paced for me (or my student) to decipher "Use A" in a reasonable amount of time for it to be effective. What I've found a lot better is coaching between rounds, what's the biggest thing for you to fix or biggest opening for you to exploit.

Regarding 2, 4, and 5, see my response to Monkey below.

I think most styles have memorized combinations, even if they don't refer to them as such. Boxing gyms I go to have the normal jab cross hook uppercut, jab jab cross, cross double hook, muay thai places have similar, kali has abecedario and the doce methodos, obviously karate and TKD have a ton.

There's a reason for it - it works. There are certain things that work better with the body's dynamics then others, so those get practiced more. And you can use them as a branching off point.
The trap is having too many of them, but simply having rote combinations is not a bad thing.

If looking at a style with 10 belts are so, I'd say 1-3 per rank would be appropriate. Maybe 3-4 at lower ranks and 0-1 by the time you get to the browns.

And we'll probably have a lot of combinations that we do regularly. It just won't be rote memorized that here is your combination 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

Common combos in TKD are roundhouse kick - back kick, roundhouse kick - tornado kick, roundhouse kick - spinning hook kick, or roundhouse kick - roundhouse kick. We'll do these combinations a lot because roundhouse kick combos well into most other kicks, and not because these are your combinations #1-5.

In the Muay Thai classes I've been in, we haven't had a single combo that we've memorized by number or by place in any curriculum. Same with BJJ. We have the "move of the week" but nothing else along those lines.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In the Muay Thai classes I've been in, we haven't had a single combo that we've memorized by number or by place in any curriculum. Same with BJJ. We have the "move of the week" but nothing else along those lines.

Grappling I haven't seen it. You don't memorize by number in muay thai, but there definitely are 'bread and butter' combinations that come up more often, and you'll definitely see patterns of doing. At least in the schools I've been to.

 

[skribs]

Grappling I haven't seen it. You don't memorize by number in muay thai, but there definitely are 'bread and butter' combinations that come up more often, and you'll definitely see patterns of doing. At least in the schools I've been to.

I'm not against bread-and-butter.

I'm against rote memorized by number (or number adjacent).

 

[Earl Weiss]

Regarding 1 & 3, my experience has been that most folks (including myself) can't even hear the coach in striking competition, and if you can, then it's too fast-paced for me (or my student) to decipher "Use A" in a reasonable amount of time for it to be effective. What I've found a lot better is coaching between rounds, what's the biggest thing for you to fix or biggest opening for you to exploit.

It's all about the training. If you train by having the coach call out combos the reactions are built in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The form that you have learned from your teacher may not designed for sparring. But the forms that you create yourselves can be for sparring.

For example, you can create a form as:

- jab, cross, roundhouse kick.
- hook punch, side kick, spin back fist.
- groin kick, face punch, arm wrap, head lock, front cut.
- foot sweep, arm jam, waist wrap, hip throw.
- ...

The form that you have just created has as much value as you have learned from your teacher (may be more).

IMO, MA training should have different stages:

1. Learning stage.
2. Training stage.
3. Creating stage.

Some people may stay on stage 2 forever. Some people may get into stage 3. To create a new MA technique may be difficult. But to record those fighting skill that you believe is useful, the task should not be too hard.

I think people are more likely to stay at stage 2 if they don't spar using the techniques. The won't move past stage 2 if they spar and abandon the techniques. Using the techniques is required to grow and evolve the techniques. Things that aren't used have no way to grow or evolve.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Grappling I haven't seen it. You don't memorize by number in muay thai, but there definitely are 'bread and butter' combinations that come up more often, and you'll definitely see patterns of doing. At least in the schools I've been to.

Memorizing by numbers is good for completions where coaches can tell the fighter what to do without having the opponent know what the fighter is about to do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think people are more likely to stay at stage 2 if they don't spar using the techniques. The won't move past stage 2 if they spar and abandon the techniques. Using the techniques is required to grow and evolve the techniques. Things that aren't used have no way to grow or evolve.

I always like to ask people this question.

If you have trained:

- Xing Yi Pao Chuan.

- Taiji fair lady work on shuttle.

- long fist Ja Da (Tantui 5th road).

When you spar, which move will you use? An upward block and punch in one style may look different in form. But in sparring, it should work the same.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combintion" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

 

[skribs]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combintion" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

In my experience training under the Masters I've trained, there isn't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combintion" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

Forms is the general term combination is specific term. When talking about forms we are often not distinguishing between non combustion and combination strikes. Some things in form may not even be strikes. When talking about combination, the assumption that we are talking about fighting application

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combintion" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

The form contains "grammar". The combinations are "sentences" that are generated from the grammar. You learn grammar to create sentences.

For example, you form may contain "groin kick, face punch". You combo may contain:

- front kick, uppercut.
- side kick, spin back fist.
- roundhouse kick, hook punch.
- crescent kick, hammer fist.
- ...

Form (grammar):



Combo (sentence):

 

[marvin8]

The form contains "grammar". The combinations are "sentences" that are generated from the grammar. You learn grammar to create sentences.

For example, you form may contain "groin kick, face punch". You combo may contain:

- front kick, uppercut.
- side kick, spin back fist.
- roundhouse kick, hook punch.
- crescent kick, hammer fist.
- ...

Form (grammar):

Disagree, the above form only contains a sentence (combo), "groin kick, face punch." Oliver Enkamp's MMA Kata contains "grammar," includes how to apply the technique(s).

Combo (sentence):

Cung Le's combo contains grammar (principle), not just technique. In Zhang vs Jedrzejczyk 2, Weili, two-time UFC Women's Strawweight Champion, performs a similar concept...