"Bad" TKD" looks pretty good to me!

[Kung Fu Wang]

Disagree, the above form only contains a sentence (combo), "groin kick, face punch."

Sentence - groin kick, face punch.
Grammar - use kick to set up punch.

Maybe the best way to say is a book contains many sentences. Each sentence represented by a grammar. When you read a book (or learn a form), it's more important to learn the grammar than to learn the sentence.

The sentence "side kick, spin back fist" exists in the form. The grammar is still to "use kick to set up punch".

 

[marvin8]

Sentence - groin kick, face punch.
Grammar - use kick to set up punch.

Maybe the best way to say is a book contains many sentences. Each sentence represented by a grammar. When you learn a form, it's more important to learn the grammar than to learn the sentence.

Sentence - groin, kick, face punch
Grammar - process (principles) that the combo follows.

A good book (kata/drills) tells a more realistic story of actions/reactions of both characters.

The sentence "side kick, spin back fist" exists in the CMA form.

Your just drilling a combo is different from the MMA Kata, Zhang Weili and Cung Le clips.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combination" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

I know there is no generally accepted definition and the answer may be system specific. I think the "Forms" in TMA likely have characteristics not contained in a "Combination" . For instance a form may contain combinations but a combination won't contain a form/ (Kind of like you can put a boat on a ship but can't put a ship on a boat. ) I would say most combinations may contain 2,3,4,or 5 techniques. Forms will have very specific technical parameters (Stances used, stance lengths and widths, Targets for certain techniques, striking surface used etc. ) and combinations may have few if any, forms my have esthetic and / or philosophical considerations not found in combinations. Forms are not concerned with sparring rules or objectives, and y be designed to practice both sides equally, I expect many will disagree with some or all of the foregoing but it helps make for a good discussion when people agree , at least for that discussion, how terms are defined.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The form contains "grammar". The combinations are "sentences" that are generated from the grammar. You learn grammar to create sentences.

:

General Choi said something similar. Something to the effect that the "Fundamental Techniques" (The strike or Block) are the alphabet. As we know you then put together the letters to make words. And words make sentences. How you arrange them changes things.

 

[HighKick]

Is there a difference between something we refer to as a "Form" and something that would be better labeled a "Combintion" I think discussion has gotten a little off track by how terms are applied. .

From my experience, a combination has the intent of a specific strike at or near the end. For example, we regularly work combinations for tournament sparring.
A form is a consolidation of movements combined to teach stance, balance, breathing, memory, individual strikes (usually) and individual kicks (usually).
Just my 2-cents worth.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sentence - groin, kick, face punch
Grammar - process (principles) that the combo follows.

Your grammar is defined by your principle. But you still need to define what your principle is. IMO, your grammar definition is too abstract.

 

[marvin8]

Sentence - groin, kick, face punch
Grammar - process (principles) that the combo follows.

Your grammar is defined by your principle. But you still need to define what your principle is. IMO, your grammar definition is too abstract.

Principles that guide the combo (techniques)...

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use release force too directly. They just want to use their force to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan [or high level] skill, throwing force should never be used alone.

The complete process consists of five steps:

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

In order to be true Taiji [or high level] skill, the first four steps must be present.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

In order to be true Taiji [or high level] skill, the first four steps must be present.

I agree with what you have said. But is this true for all combos?

For example, in the following clip,

- You throw a right punch (1. lure), your opponent uses right outside in block.
- You use left arm to push his right blocking arm (2. listen and 3. control) and punch back with your right arm.
- Your opponent uses left outside in block.
- Your left arm pushes his left blocking arm (4. dissolve) and punch to his head (5. attack).

I will say the grammar for this video is "switch hands". You punch, your opponent blocks. You use other arm to re-block his block and free your punching arm. You then punch again with your initial punching arm.

 

[marvin8]

I agree with what you have said. But is this true for all combos?

They are guiding principles for fight sequences, which may contain combos. If you don't have the knowledge and skill to follow the principles in a fight, then it can be false for your combos or sequences.

For example, in the following clip,

- You throw a right punch (1. lure), your opponent uses right outside in block.
- You use left arm to push his right blocking arm (2. listen and 3. control) and punch back with your right arm.
- Your opponent uses left outside in block.
- Your left arm pushes his left blocking arm (4. dissolve) and punch to his head (5. attack).

When you step jab (from a closed stance) and the opponent "outside in blocks" it like below, at what point will you "push it...?" There are many ways to defend against a jab, which you don't seem to control. Your overextended parry makes you vulnerable to a KO.