Back-of-the-upper-arm blocks?

[arnisador]

In looking at some of the video clips here, I noticed a few times when Vladimir Vasiliev used, or so it seemed to me, the back part of his upper arm for a block. It looked like he was working a natural reaction of shielding the head into a block. Is this indeed a block using the tricep area or is it just too fast for me to see exactly what's what? Most of the other techniques I recognized having seen at one point or another in one martial art or another, though not typically strung together quite like this, but this looked different--though if he's using the forearm it's more reminscent of the FMA's umbrella block, for example.

It was interesting seeing how fluidly he moved. He did another block/slip that started from a shoulder shrug but otherwise reminded me of some FMA techniques--though here I suspect it's a case of "we all see what we know" in situations like this! Hopefully I'll be able to get jaybacca72 to share more Systema with me at the WMAA camp.

 

[Furtry]

In the System we try to avoid blocking. And yes a good movement is a good movement no matter what you call it or where you see it.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Furtry
In the System we try to avoid blocking. And yes a good movement is a good movement no matter what you call it or where you see it.

My "avoid blocking" do you mean that getting out of the way is the prefered method of not getting hit.

 

[Rich_]

I can only speak for the ROSS system, but from what I have seen, there are many more similarities than differences.

I've noticed a lot of similar movements in Filipino and Indonesian arts and Russian ones, far more than in, say, Japanese. However, a key difference (as I see it) is that the Russian styles make a lot more use of the shoulders' mobility in the movements than most arts. This comes through in both defence and attack.

I've not seen the clip you refer to, but it sounds like a standard movement for the protection of the head - a little like smoothing your hair down just above your ears as you close with your opponent, similar to kung fu monkey blocks and some kali entries to close combat.

Fluidity is very important; slipping, closing and parrying are key skills, whereas 'blocking' has connotations of a more confrontational approach to the opponent's attack. Flowing around attacks, sliding inside the comfort zone of the opponent and the ever-present 'using their energy against them' - familiar to anyone with standing grappling experience - are more in line with the combat philosophy than direct confrontation. Let them do what they want, just not to you

The above makes it sound soft, aikido-like; in fact, most of the Russians I've trained with have boxing and/or wrestling backgrounds, so the fluidity is used more as a low-effort way to get into a position to really screw you up...

 

[arnisador]

Smoothing the hair--yes, like that.

 

[Arthur]

Arnisador said:

My "avoid blocking" do you mean that getting out of the way is the prefered method of not getting hit.

Getting out of the way is good, but mt being there is better.

Rich said:

However, a key difference (as I see it) is that the Russian styles make a lot more use of the shoulders' mobility in the movements than most arts. This comes through in both defence and attack.

That's for sure!

Rich also said:

Fluidity is very important; slipping, closing and parrying are key skills, whereas 'blocking' has connotations of a more confrontational approach to the opponent's attack. Flowing around attacks, sliding inside the comfort zone of the opponent and the ever-present 'using their energy against them' - familiar to anyone with standing grappling experience - are more in line with the combat philosophy than direct confrontation. Let them do what they want, just not to you

I agree again, though I'd make one picky distinction, at least from a Systema specific perspectaive. I don;t really think we "parry" much. We "redirect". Sometimes through contact and sometimes by "leading" the opponents attack.

The distinction I make, and this is just how I define it, is a parry has a at least a slight impulse force on the blow. Granted a "parry" will "redirect" the blow but there is certain conotation of pressure their in the way I use the term. When I try to redirect a blow with contact, I seek to touch the limb with as little force as possible, so the opponent can't even feel it (sometimes I'm more successful than other'-) then rotate my limb so as to change the vector of his force by progressively taking his space through the rotation. This helps the blow to continue on its path, while limiting the neural feedback that he has "failed".

This approach is one way of making a new plane for the oponents blow to travel on. This can be done on other axis as well. With different body movements.

For the sake of furhter discussion why don't I list my personal terms for how you can deal with a blow. I'll attempt to put them in a rough hierarchy of my preference as well.

1) Don't be there
2) Get out of the way
3) Redirect without contact
4) Redirect with contact
5) Deflect (ex. making a wedge to allow the blow to slide along)
6) Parry
7 ) dare I say block just to be complete

Actually to be complete there is the idea of stop hitting and also moving another part of the opponents body to interfere with his strike. I'm not sure where they fit in... Hmm... well it was a good experiment anyway Its 2:15... I probably missed some anyway

Arthur

 

[Brian King]

Arthur,
how bout absorbing,
and how bout taking it.

 

[Arthur]

Arthur,
how bout absorbing,
and how bout taking it.

You see I knew I'd forget something. I was thinking about those when I first started writing and then poof! Gone from my head.

Yes those are VERY important.

Arthur

 

[jellyman]

A valiant effort Atrthur. As one more, there's letting them hit the wrong thing - punching an elbow, for example, or shin kicking a knee.

Let them do what they want, just not to you

nice one, Rich_. How long have you been doing ROSS?

 

[Rich_]

Arthur,

I was using parry in a non-impulsive sense; somewhere between Redirecting with contact and wedging on your scale, I think. I'm curious how you redirect without contact; doesn't Newton's first law have something to say about that? Or do you mean misdirecting the blow before it is launched, feinting and slipping?

That's a good list, by the way. I'd add my vote to jellyman's suggestion, a sort of 'defanging the snake' - attack their weapons (or is this what you meant by stop hitting?). In addition to guiding the strike onto your elbow/forehead/knee, there's also attacking it while it's on the way. I don't know if it's a Systema habit, but I find it handy to strike at the bicep of a curving punch if I want to close to grappling range; it hurts them, your forearm protects from the punch curving overand it's a natural flow to an elbow grab for a throw, a drag into a strike or an elbow press to suppress their movement.

I had a teacher some years ago who had trained in monkey style kung fu. He would do a knuckle rap along the forearm of an incoming (and avoided) punch that left you hurting for days...

jellyman, I've been doing ROSS for coming up on five years, teaching for two. Hoping to start a school up here in Holland, but I'm getting back into regular training first.

 

[Arthur]

I was using parry in a non-impulsive sense;

I hear ya.

I'm curious how you redirect without contact; doesn't Newton's first law have something to say about that? Or do you mean misdirecting the blow before it is launched, feinting and slipping?

You can redirect a blow without contact by working with the opponents perception (reflexs and limits). Two basic ways come to mind at the moment. One always changes the vector of the attack when done and the other can change the vector or merely get the opponent to travel further along it than he wants.

To change the vector you can take advantage of a persons tendency to track a target. I think most of us have had the experieince of trying to slip a punch too early and experiencing the resultant pain from your partner walloping you because he tracked your movement (adjusted and followed you). Well you can use that to your advantage. You can move in such a way that you get your opponent to track you... but you remain out of range or slip it in another way toward the end of his intended strike. This will pull his fist of the original trajectory, often unbalancing him and leaving you intact.

If you move along the vector but out of range you get only the overextension, if you subtlely move off the vector you get a "true redirection".

This method is I think most easily applied playing with wrist grabs. Have the opponent try to grab your wrist fairly quickly and with a reasonable amount of force. When his hand is just about to close around your hand... move your wrist backa few centemeters. If he believes he can still get it easily, he'll extend his attempt. Once you get that down, you can move the wrist away in little half and quarter circles. When he adjust to grab it (he must think its within grasp), he'll technically change his vector. From there you can experiment with using it against other grabs and punches as well.

Likewise, and this is the one that's great for parties, you can substitute a false target. the basic party trick version of this works like this. Opponent punches at your face. you bring your hand in front of your face then out to the side (at the right moment). The opponent will normally see the hand, subconciously (there are also some ocular reflexs involved) substitute the hand as the target, then track the hand as you move it to the side.

Its pretty impressive when you first see it. It takes a while to get the timing down, but the guys I know who really have this well (Shidare Yanagi Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu guys tend to be REALLY good at this) can make people miss almost everytime. Of course its good to have a back up defense in case it doesn't work. I wouldn't rely solely on it a real fight. However recognizing its existence, can let you ad that dimension into your movements so you can get a more pronounced reaction from your opponent even when using movement to avoid them.

Also keep in mind that is sort of the base version of the skill. Later you apply the kill to gettting the opponent to track the wrong parts of your body while you are in motion doing other things.

I'd add my vote to jellyman's suggestion, a sort of 'defanging the snake' - attack their weapons (or is this what you meant by stop hitting?).

Yeah, I pretty much see that as a version of a stop hit. Sometimes I'll move my head back and put my elbow where it was... then I see it as a combination of stop hit and get out of the way.

I don't know if it's a Systema habit, but I find it handy to strike at the bicep of a curving punch if I want to close to grappling range;

I do that sometimes. Its a cool move that really unerves the opponet More often than not I use it for illustrating a point about opening up peoples mind about the nature of "ranges", since you can create a lock/grapple situation from pretty long range.

Hoping to start a school up here in Holland, but I'm getting back into regular training first.

Let us know when you want to start training people. We have a couple of Newbies over on the Systema board looking for some instruction in Holland. I'll tell them to come over when you feel its time.

This is turning into a pretty cool thread I think. Neat.

Arthur
PS thanks Jelly

 

[Rich_]

Originally posted by Arthur

Likewise, and this is the one that's great for parties, you can substitute a false target. the basic party trick version of this works like this. Opponent punches at your face. you bring your hand in front of your face then out to the side (at the right moment). The opponent will normally see the hand, subconciously (there are also some ocular reflexs involved) substitute the hand as the target, then track the hand as you move it to the side.

That's interesting; a few years ago there was a Systema instructor in the UK (no names mentioned, but he's not one of the London/Cambridge crowd; not heard anything of him for a while) who was doing that and claiming he was psychically manipulating his opponents into missing. We (ROSS practitioners) got no end of stick about flying chi bolts and fireballs because of that.

However, it appears that the conventional Systema wisdom is, as we were putting forward, that it's a hand/eye co-ordination thing. I always had my doubts about that guy, after I trained with some of his students... However, he didn't do Systema any favours; I have to admit, it's only after meeting the guys in London and seeing the sensible comments of some of the people on the net that I started rating it as a proper martial art.

I do that sometimes. Its a cool move that really unerves the opponet More often than not I use it for illustrating a point about opening up peoples mind about the nature of "ranges", since you can create a lock/grapple situation from pretty long range.

Last time I was in Russia we were practising dealing with strikes at various ranges; jamming, evading/redirecing, absorbing and so on. Interesting stuff, especially when you think you've landed a good shot and you still end up on the floor, tied in knots.

Let us know when you want to start training people. We have a couple of Newbies over on the Systema board looking for some instruction in Holland. I'll tell them to come over when you feel its time.

By all means, please ask them to email me - my address is on http://www.formauk.org/contact.html
It might even get me off my backside and organising!

 

[Furtry]

Originally posted by Furtry
In the System we try to avoid blocking. And yes a good movement is a good movement no matter what you call it or where you see it.

As many have given excelent answers I'll only add one thing.
Boxers would rather dance out of the way or slip a punch than block it, not that they don't block sometimes. For me blocking teaches a bad habit of force on force. I once blocked a bat swung at my head wich resulted in a shattered wrist:shrug: .

 

[jellyman]

Furtry, are you back?

 

[Klondike93]

I once blocked a bat swung at my head wich resulted in a shattered wrist

Ouch!! That's learning the hard way


:asian: