Atemi Ryu

[Chris Parker]

Oh, no, your post didn't come off that way at all. Daito Ryu is something I've had an arm chair interest in for a while, myself. I am aware of the controversy surrounding its history and am a bit of a sceptic as to its claims of antiquity. That being said, I'd love it if there was a dojo or study group within driving distance of where I am located. I'd love to train in it some time.

Agreed. There are a couple of groups in Australia, notably in my home state, but with everything else on my plate it'd be a bit too much... then again, if I heard of a seminar happening nearby....

I was aware of his training in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and that his father knew sumo, but not that there were claims about Hozoin Ryu or Jikishinkage Ryu. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone sees any influences from these styles on Sokaku's techniques. Do you know if Daito Ryu includes spear techniques in its syllabus?

I know that Takeda is said to have taught some sojutsu, and have heard stories about it being trained with at a high level (whether that is actually learning sojutsu, or training using a spear in some other fashion, is not confirmed for me yet, though). Another Ryu that I've had some experience in also claims to train in spear at a high level, but they don't have any kata for it, so it's used more as an extension of other principles and methods they have. My feeling is that Daito Ryu is the same.

Wait, are you saying Daito Ryu claims to be from Yoshitsune, or just from the 12th century? I mean, being taught kenjutsu by Sojobo is pretty impressive and all but I thought I had read that Daito Ryu claims to go back even further than that (A.D. 900, perhaps?).

Yep, the old stories have Yoshitsune as the founder of the Ryu. I've also heard earlier dates, but no other founder mentioned. Then again, the practice of including famous figures in the history of your art isn't really unusual, or uncommon in Japanese arts. There's probably a dozen schools all said to have been founded by Bokuden Tsukahara, for instance.

This is one of the main reasons why I am more than a bit sceptical about Daito Ryu's official history. It would certainly be unique amongst koryu, as far as my limited understanding goes, if it was in fact that old.

Yeah, it would basically scream that what was originally there was all gone, and the current ideas (the unarmed methods primarily) are not anywhere near as old as the system claims. Add to that the fact that the dominant aspect of weaponry these days is not from Daito Ryu itself, but from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, further removes it from being an old lineage.

Given the Japanese predeliction for leaving a paper trail when it comes to things like this, do you know if Sokaku had licenses from anyone specifically in Daito Ryu (as opposed to Ono-ha Itto Ryu)?

As the name doesn't appear to have been used before Takeda, I'm going to say no.

Interesting, thanks. I don't know much about sumo but I'd be very interested in seeing how it relates to Daito Ryu, both philosophically and technically. The link to swordsmanship I have seen. There is video of Katsuyuki Kondo showing the relationship between kenjutsu and jujutsu which is pretty interesting, as well as aikido techniques being described as "cut down with your hands as if with a sword" by Rinjiro Shirata. But going from a sword-based system to an unarmed system using sword strategy is impressive, to say the least. You have to have an amazing insight on things to see more than a basic connection, IMNSHO.

Honestly, I don't see a lot of sumo in Daito Ryu. A lot more Asayama Ichiden Ryu, really. Agreed on needing to have an amazing amount of insight as well, for the level that Daito Ryu manages. That said, taking sword techniques and making them the basis for unarmed methods isn't that hard. I've done it with some koryu kenjutsu I train in, applying it as unarmed against a knife, or unarmed against unarmed from time to time. Additionally, I'm currently teaching from one of our systems known as Kukishinden Ryu, and their unarmed methods are interesting in that they don't have any muto dori (unarmed against a weapon). Except they do. They're found in the schools methods of short sword and jutte. Fun stuff, really.

For the record, here's a very good example showing the "sword-based" attacks in Daito Ryu, from Takeda Tokimune.

And, if you're interested, this is a small example of the form of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that I'm talking about. As I said, they share a similar location, which can explain similarities in a number of ways. This Ryu dates from the early 17th Century (although some versions of the story have it a bit earlier). Not my favourite video, but there's not a lot of footage of this line available online...

 

[chrispillertkd]

I know that Takeda is said to have taught some sojutsu, and have heard stories about it being trained with at a high level (whether that is actually learning sojutsu, or training using a spear in some other fashion, is not confirmed for me yet, though). Another Ryu that I've had some experience in also claims to train in spear at a high level, but they don't have any kata for it, so it's used more as an extension of other principles and methods they have. My feeling is that Daito Ryu is the same.

Interesting. Is it common for koryu to have weapons or other types of techniques that are not passed down in kata? I was udner the impression that the vast majority of material in such systems were - if not entirely contained in kata - at least based on kata. In other words, that there were kata that represented each area of training.

Yep, the old stories have Yoshitsune as the founder of the Ryu. I've also heard earlier dates, but no other founder mentioned. Then again, the practice of including famous figures in the history of your art isn't really unusual, or uncommon in Japanese arts. There's probably a dozen schools all said to have been founded by Bokuden Tsukahara, for instance.

This I wasn't aware of. Not that it's impossible, but it does seem ... improbable.

Yeah, it would basically scream that what was originally there was all gone, and the current ideas (the unarmed methods primarily) are not anywhere near as old as the system claims. Add to that the fact that the dominant aspect of weaponry these days is not from Daito Ryu itself, but from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, further removes it from being an old lineage.

Do you mean that the philosophy undergirding Daito Ryu's kenjutsu seems to come directly from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as opposed to Daito Ryu itself? How does this work since the link between sword and empty hand is stressed, particularly by Katsuyuki Kondo? Or am I not following you here?

Honestly, I don't see a lot of sumo in Daito Ryu. A lot more Asayama Ichiden Ryu, really. Agreed on needing to have an amazing amount of insight as well, for the level that Daito Ryu manages. That said, taking sword techniques and making them the basis for unarmed methods isn't that hard. I've done it with some koryu kenjutsu I train in, applying it as unarmed against a knife, or unarmed against unarmed from time to time. Additionally, I'm currently teaching from one of our systems known as Kukishinden Ryu, and their unarmed methods are interesting in that they don't have any muto dori (unarmed against a weapon). Except they do. They're found in the schools methods of short sword and jutte. Fun stuff, really.

Well, the only armed system I've trained in has been western fencing (I never got to sword work in Kung Fu) so I'm coming at things from a different persepctive. I suppose if you've got an in-depth background in both weapons and empty hand training it would be different.

For the record, here's a very good example showing the "sword-based" attacks in Daito Ryu, from Takeda Tokimune.

Well, sure, they were blatantly obvious in that clip :lol: It is interesting that even the "ready" position they take in this clip seems based on that of holding a sword. Some of the techniques demonstated are found inTaekwon-Do's hosinsul, too, interestingly. I know there are only so many ways to attack a human body, but it is interesting given Gen. Choi's appropriation of some Hapkido techniques via GM Chung Kee Tae and the question of the link between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. And no I'm not suggesting that means Taekwon-Do goes back to 12th century Japan

And, if you're interested, this is a small example of the form of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that I'm talking about. As I said, they share a similar location, which can explain similarities in a number of ways. This Ryu dates from the early 17th Century (although some versions of the story have it a bit earlier). Not my favourite video, but there's not a lot of footage of this line available online...

Thanks for the video. I am unfamiliar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu but it looks quite interesting. There were actually a couple of techniques in that video that resembled some of the hosinsul I've learned in Taekwon-Do, too. Not identical, by any means, but similar.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Chris Parker]

Interesting. Is it common for koryu to have weapons or other types of techniques that are not passed down in kata? I was udner the impression that the vast majority of material in such systems were - if not entirely contained in kata - at least based on kata. In other words, that there were kata that represented each area of training.

Hmm, it's not "common", but by the same token, it's not "uncommon"... In quite a number of Ryu there are often areas of knowledge/instruction that aren't presented in kata form, but they also aren't necessarily combative (technique) methods. Then again, they could be. Koryu aren't really something that can be generalised that way.

This I wasn't aware of. Not that it's impossible, but it does seem ... improbable.

Agreed.

Do you mean that the philosophy undergirding Daito Ryu's kenjutsu seems to come directly from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as opposed to Daito Ryu itself? How does this work since the link between sword and empty hand is stressed, particularly by Katsuyuki Kondo? Or am I not following you here?

Hmm, that's a little harder to explain...

Takeda Sokaku was trained in a range of weapons, including Ono-ha Itto Ryu, probably Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu, and more, separate to what has been presented as Daito Ryu. These weapons were taught by him, however under his son Tokimune, the weaponry contingent was severely curtailed, basically reducing it to Ono-ha Itto Ryu, and some lines teaching Mugen Shinto Ryu Iai. As a result, the swordsmanship, although integrated into the teaching of Daito Ryu, isn't really Daito Ryu per se. In that way it's not too dissimilar to arts like the Takagi Ryu in various forms (such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu), where large parts of their weaponry, particularly the Bojutsu, come from the Kukishin Ryu. The techniques have been altered and adapted to be more in line with the Hontai Yoshin Ryu itself, but the methods are still Kukishin Ryu in essence.

When you start looking at the connection between sword and taijutsu (as seen in Daito Ryu, Aikido, and others), the specific Ryu of sword isn't so important, as it's more about the principles of angling, footwork, full body commitment, and so on.

Well, the only armed system I've trained in has been western fencing (I never got to sword work in Kung Fu) so I'm coming at things from a different persepctive. I suppose if you've got an in-depth background in both weapons and empty hand training it would be different.

Yeah, probably.

Well, sure, they were blatantly obvious in that clip :lol: It is interesting that even the "ready" position they take in this clip seems based on that of holding a sword. Some of the techniques demonstated are found inTaekwon-Do's hosinsul, too, interestingly. I know there are only so many ways to attack a human body, but it is interesting given Gen. Choi's appropriation of some Hapkido techniques via GM Chung Kee Tae and the question of the link between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. And no I'm not suggesting that means Taekwon-Do goes back to 12th century Japan

Yeah, there are certainly similarities found. Personally, there being the same, or highly similar mechanical methods doesn't, to me, mean that they are the same techniques. But that's another topic entirely...

Thanks for the video. I am unfamiliar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu but it looks quite interesting. There were actually a couple of techniques in that video that resembled some of the hosinsul I've learned in Taekwon-Do, too. Not identical, by any means, but similar.

Pax,

Chris

There's a number of lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu around, some of which haven't retained any taijutsu aspects, so getting the right one is the trick....quite an interesting system, really. But, for fun, here's a few videos of some of the various lines for Asayama Ichiden Ryu:

Not the greatest footage, but this is another branch of the line shown above.

A similar line... some of it is fairly familiar, but other aspects are a bit different....

One of the better known forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu talk about being from a farming area, and are mainly focused on weaponry aspects. Here, double kama are shown.

Asayama Ichiden Ryu Iai... unlike many other forms, the Iai in this tradition are all done as paired forms.

 

[arnisador]

This is Takenouchi-ryū .

Fascinating. I'm going to have to dig deeper on this art!

 

[Chris Parker]

'Tis a fantastic system... anything in particular you were curious about there?

 

[Jon-Bhoy]

Back on the Atemi Ryu topic. Does anyone know what Mr. Chenique is a Dr. Of?

 

[arnisador]

'Tis a fantastic system... anything in particular you were curious about there?

As a Filipino martial arts practitioner who came from a Japanese martial arts background--mostly Okinawan karate but some iaido, which I really loved--much of what I've seen for knifework from the JMAs has seemed very stiff, formal, and overly sword-influenced (wrong range); in addition, pragmatic defenses against the knife have been rare. I'd assumed most of that info. died out due to an emphasis on passing down katana-related material and there was less interest in less-iconic weapons. It was very interesting to me to see what looked like both knife-appropriate knifework and knife-appropriate defenses. (I recognize that they likely view this as a short sword rather than a knife per se.) I'd love to see some of that live--the video is really interesting to me but limiting as far as what I can see. Maybe other systems have kept this too but my experience has been that good offensive tanto material has been rare and realistic defenses have been all but absent. Maybe it's just what I've seen as someone not in the JMAs and just looking from the outside.

I'd be curious to see more of this material and get a feeling for what they're doing! I start to recognize things we do as FMAers in this clip--not a lot, but a lot more than usual.

 

[Chris Parker]

The origin story of Takenouchi Ryu states that Takenouchi Hisamori, after leaving his previous teacher (due to a loss in a martial competition), went to the mountains near a shrine (the Sannomiya Shrine), to meditate and train with his bokken. The bokken was 2 shaku 4 sun (nearly two and a half feet, or 72 cm), a rather long size for Hisamori, who was less than five feet himself. After six days he fell asleep, exhausted, and was woken by a mountain priest, who (according to the historical records of Takenouchi Ryu) was so fierce looking that Hisamori felt he was the personification of the warrior god Atago. Hisamori attacked the priest, who easily bested the young warrior. Once Hisamori was humbled, the strange old man gave him some directions about the nature of strategy, then told him that his sword was too long, and was useless for fighting, and broke Hisamori's bokken in half. He then instructed Hisamori in methods of using the shorter weapons, which in Takenouchi Ryu are referred to as Kogusoku (literally: "small set"), with the techniques using them being referred to as "Torite Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari" (seizing hand, small set/small weapons [from] around the hips). Along with this, there are purely unarmed techniques, referred to as Hade/Kenpo Taijutsu, a wide ranging set of methods of jujutsu, including striking, locking, throwing, breakfalling, and more. There is also Torite Hojojutsu, a set of methods for restraining opponents by tying them up with rope, as well as a wide range of more conventional (and some less conventional) weaponry, such as staffs of various sizes, sword, and so on. Oh, but for the record, the less conventional include things like nabebuta... the lid from a cooking pot. Really.

In terms of seeing some more of the system, there's quite a good documentary showing the Soke line (Takenouchi Ryu has three lines, the Soke line, the Sodenke line, and the Bitchu Den, who pronounce the name "Takeuchi Ryu", but the technical make up of each is still incredibly similar), which is on you-tube. In order, the parts are:

When looking for other systems (Japanese) that deal with short bladed weapons, there's only really a few that deal with them much, and Takenouchi Ryu would be the most prominent. But there is also uses within some naginata systems, such as Tendo Ryu, mainly for when the swordsman opponent closes and your naginata is no longer useful. You abandon the naginata, draw your short blade, and stab away! Systems such as Araki Ryu also contain methods for using such short weapons, as do a range of others. Then you have a wide range of schools that deal with attacks from short blades, and the larger range of schools that deal with more typical short swords (kodachi, wakizashi, shoto etc), as opposed to knife work (tanto, aikuchi, yoroi doshi, kaiken etc). I will say, though, that this is just the apparent teachings... what's not apparent is a different story....

When you talk about the preference for the more "iconic" weapon (the sword), honestly, that's not the reason. These systems were largely highly pragmatic... if the lessons were presented with sword just because someone liked it, or thought it was iconic, it wouldn't survive. You also have to remember that the sword might be considered iconic to the image of the samurai today, but that wasn't always the case... especially for any system that predates the Edo period, as it was in the Edo period that the samurai were inexorably linked with the concept of swordsmanship, most particularly through the edicts that only samurai could wear the two swords as a badge of rank. Really, the reason that the sword was a favoured weapon for martial systems was that it was considered the most versatile tool in the warriors arsenal, and was the easiest way to teach strategy, tactics, angling, timing, targeting, and so forth. Nothing to do with "I'm a samurai, gotta use a sword!"

I would somewhat disagree that pragmatic defences against knife are rare... I think it's more likely that you're expecting the defences to be against forms of attack that simply weren't the reality of what would be faced. Additionally, the basis' of the defences that I've seen, from a range of systems, are highly pragmatic, and very powerful... but do need adaptation to a different attacking form. That detail is not always understood fully.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks for all this info.! I don't doubt that there are pragmatic defenses out there--I just don't end up seeing them much (usually standard karate blocks being shown as being equally usable against knives). My experience with koryu arts is quite limited apart from books so this is eye-opening for me. The first video above contains in its two first-shown techniques some maneuvers done in a style that I have rarely seen used outside a FMA context--and I do get around and see things from other systems often enough. Logically I figured it must be out there--there's nothing new under the sun--so I'm glad to see some of it.

 

[Chris Parker]

My pleasure. Speaking personally, when it comes to pragmatic martial arts, nothing matches Koryu... which is interesting when you consider that I don't think Koryu methods are good for dealing with modern assaults and environments. But that's another argument...

 

[Aiki Lee]

The 2nd video in the list above shows some valid concepts/techniques. Watching this video, as with most MA videos I see ,it is difficult to determine the nuances of an art. The instructor is combining techniques in a flow that is good training for a student with some training. Nothing wrong there. He shows a more relaxed stance than most people are used to seeing. That, along with the combinig of multiple pins, locks, breaks, indicates that he is teaching a group of advanced students or demonstrating advanced techniques. My opinion.

I look at these videos (the first two anyway) and see what the things presented are supposed to be, but there are quite a few things that I believe need some adjustment. I see things of value but they're all muddled up.

 

[Chris Parker]

(Just for context for that quote, Himura.... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/103606-Opinions-on-my-videos)