ata? Good, bad newbie needs help

[HM2PAC]

Sylo wrote:

One thing ATA could do to improve its reputation, is split its adults and kids efforts into 2 different things. Watching people in their 30s and 40s twirling a plastic bo staff just seems silly to me. I mean, if you want to be a baton twirler in your spare time its a good way to learn.. but I just feel like that sort of stuff should be only open to the younger set or at least give the adults the option to opt out of it. I don't think any of the "flash" should be required, but there as an option if you want to participate. Somewhat like demo teams are handled in traditional schools (our school is too old school for demo teams, but I actually like the idea of demo teams.. as it draws attention to what we do in a positive way that the public can relate to.

What you are describing as what you would do is EXACTLY what our school does. I haven't seen any plastic Bo Staves as of yet, but I'm sure they are out there. (As my wife and I buy our weapons, we have been buying white wax wood.) The kids (6 & 8) are still using the foam ones. I do orthopedics, and it's been time consuming just to keep my son out of plaster/slings for a full year.

The Demo team is just that. We got involved with demo as it was extra practice, and part of the autumn demonstration was our initial form "Songahm 1".

 

[HM2PAC]

One more thing I forgot.....

The XMA stuff is all volunteer. No one has to do XMA. Our instructors recommend it as it requires the student to choreograph his/her own "form". I'll never do it myself, but I can see where that type of learning can be of benefit for a young person, or an adult for that matter.

 

[terryl965]

See this is where I differ from you, the XMA stuff is nothing but flash and really has no real value to SD principle behind Martial Arts. I can understand your thinking here but flash is just that flash.

The last thing is the Demo team what does that really do for you and your family and what are the extra cost involved in it if you do not mind sharing?

 

[BrandonLucas]

I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.

Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it.

That being said I am fortunate that my ATA school is not like many others. I have never heard my instructors cut down any of the other style schools in our region of Maine. However they are very harsh and straight-forward when rebuking other ATA schools in the area. They have been known to honestly and openly criticize 2 other ATA schools in our area. Those 2 schools are what all of you are talking about. Slop, slop, and more slop.

ATA physical conditioning is starting to come around. There are many obese and de-conditioned BB's and instructors than you can imagine. The ATA has recognized this as an organization wide problem and are going to be implementing fit testing similar to military standards. If you can't pass, you do not progress in rank. (This I really like). I may be new to TKD, but I've been a lifetime fitness nut.

I like the responses I have been given by all of you who have been frank. Thank you for your candor. The ATA has a multitude of problems, but they also do a lot of really good things for their students and their communities.

HM2PAC

I agree with most of what you're saying here. The issue that I have is the part in your post that I've bolded.

How is this any different than what anyone else on here has said? If your instructors openly criticize 2 other schools in the area that are crappy, then how is that any better than an instructor from another organization or style criticizing the ATA as a whole?

I agree in part with what Daniel is talking about with this...it's better to judge schools seperately than judging them as a group.

However...

If a school is covered under an organization, and the organization has expectations that need to be met, and the schools meet those expectations, then it's the organization that I have the issue with, not the school. To be an ATA school, you do things the ATA way. The ATA way is what I don't like.

And that's my opinion.

That being said, I do think that there are ATA schools out there that go against the grain, and it sounds like your school is one of those that does that. But, schools like that are very, very few and far between within the ATA organization.

The whole setback for having the blanket opinion that every ATA school is typical ATA is that there is the possibility that a good ATA school can be overlooked. But, the odds of that happening are pretty slim, since your ATA school is the first that I've heard of that isn't typical ATA.

And, again, it's the typical part that I have the issue with.

Regarding what I was starting off with, I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on any and every topic. While I don't think I would openly criticize a local school as an owner and instructor of another school, which can be bad for business, your instructors are certainly entitled to their opinions. The only difference between what they're saying and what many of the rest of us are saying is that they have an issue with individual schools....we have an issue with the organization as a whole, not solely because of the way individual ATA schools operate, but also because of how the organization is run and the policies in place. There are simply too many schools to individually list that are typical ATA schools.

It's just so much easier to single out the ATA schools that rise above "typical ATA".

 

[Sylo]

Sylo wrote:


What you are describing as what you would do is EXACTLY what our school does. I haven't seen any plastic Bo Staves as of yet, but I'm sure they are out there. (As my wife and I buy our weapons, we have been buying white wax wood.) The kids (6 & 8) are still using the foam ones. I do orthopedics, and it's been time consuming just to keep my son out of plaster/slings for a full year.

The Demo team is just that. We got involved with demo as it was extra practice, and part of the autumn demonstration was our initial form "Songahm 1".

This goes back to the "not all schools are created...." you get the idea.

If you go to the ATA website and look at any of the hundreds of videos on there.. you will see plenty of adults and kids alike twirling plastic bo staffs, plastic light up nunchucks, light weight kama. Then, once your done with those take a look at the forms section. And you'll see some of the worst demonstration of forms ever seen anywhere. ATA doesn't do a good job hiding the problems the way other schools seem to be able to do. Its common knowledge that the ATA is well known for its lax training, and flash over self defense. I disagree with the statement of not getting anything out of the flash. There's something to learn in everything. It may not be all that great of a learning tool.. but it does take endurance and strength to do much of the things they do. However, one could argue you could take simpler steps and reach the same point in your training without needing to become a gymnast.

Oddly enough, given the chance 10-15 years ago when I was 13-14 years old.. if you showed me an ATA school and a traditional school side by side and what each had to offer.. I'd have chosen the ATA school no questions.

 

[HM2PAC]

terryl965 asked:

The last thing is the Demo team what does that really do for you and your family and what are the extra cost involved in it if you do not mind sharing?

No extra cost at all, other than time. What it did for our family at that time is exactly what I stated,.....it gave us an opportunity to have more instruction with our form.

Brandon Lucas asked:

How is this any different than what anyone else on here has said? If your instructors openly criticize 2 other schools in the area that are crappy, then how is that any better than an instructor from another organization or style criticizing the ATA as a whole?

They are in the same organization and are trying to correct a problem that they see. Our instructors are very aware of the ATA reputation and do not want others fostering the types of lax training standards that abound. The difference is they are not insulting other people outside of there own organization. They are chastising and correcting people in their own organization who need it.

This was face to face at a BB testing with multiple schools. As it turned out only the 2 BB candidates from our school passed. Our instructors had held them back an extra 2 years (unheard of in ATA) because they did not look sharp. The other schools had the typical students that had run through the ranks and met the minimum requirements for everything. None of the other schools had anyone pass.

What I'm getting at is that no one here would accept anyone from the ATA criticizing any of your techniques, training methods, requirements, or business preactices. However it seems to be that everyone feels they have legitimate room to roam when it comes to making rude, insulting, erroneous, and disrespectful blanket statements about the ATA.

Some people have even made the statement that the ATA deserves insults because they have earned them.

Where in anyone's MA training is it that we are taught to insult anyone?

I remember years ago I trained with Eugene Ho in Hawaii at Kong's Siu Lum Pai,....I can't imagine him or any of the instructors behaving poorly.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the exact same criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:

Eight year old bb's
Lack of SD
Sparring that is unrealistic
BB's in two years or less
copious amounts of money and added fees for clubs.
BB's that can't fight.
BB's that aren't sharp in their technique and look like yellow belts

Is the ATA guilty of this? No more so than any other organization. I've seen plenty of KKW BB's that can't fight, got their BB in less than two years, are ten and under, and aren't sharp. And that's my org.! I've seen plenty of schools, some not even TKD, that have copious fees and such.

Which brings me back to...

It isn't the org that matters, but the individual school, the individual instructor, and the dedication of the student.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the exact same criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:

Eight year old bb's
Lack of SD
Sparring that is unrealistic
BB's in two years or less
copious amounts of money and added fees for clubs.
BB's that can't fight.
BB's that aren't sharp in their technique and look like yellow belts

Is the ATA guilty of this? No more so than any other organization. I've seen plenty of KKW BB's that can't fight, got their BB in less than two years, are ten and under, and aren't sharp. And that's my org.! I've seen plenty of schools, some not even TKD, that have copious fees and such.

Which brings me back to...

It isn't the org that matters, but the individual school, the individual instructor, and the dedication of the student.

Daniel

I know for sure that I personally have never implied that ALL schools don't have problems. They do, ATA or not. Its just widly apparent because of the media and advertising methods the ATA uses that they are the biggest offenders of these practices. The one off non ATA schools are just that.. one offs. The ATA as an organization puts itself out there to be a flashy kids program. Thats what it is, and thats how it promotes itself. Nothing wrong with Songahm Tae Kwon Do. ATA is like the Wal-Mart of TKD, its your one stop shop and most people hate to admit they shop there. You can get what you need there, maybe in a round about way.

You can learn TKD at an ATA school, you can learn discipline, you can get in shape. You can do all the same things you could do at any other school, at an ATA school. Problem is.. your going to pay more for it, and your going to have to wade through all the junk to get to what your actually going for. It still boils down to what it is that YOU want out of your training.

All schools have ups and downs, and all organizations have ups and downs.

ATA was not designed as a serious rigorous martial arts program intended to teach one how to defend himself. The fundamentals are there, but the application of it is not taught. I'm VERY good friends with a 3rd degree black belt from the ATA organization and he will tell me that constantly that he does not regret his choice to attend ATA.. but he did have an awful hard time unlearning all the bad habits and lax training methods he picked up from all the years he spent in their schools. We've had ATA students transfer to the schools I have gone to in the past, and lets just say.. it was difficult for them to adjust to actually having to do something in class that required exerting any sort of effort.

Its not the schools, its not not really even the instructors. Its the curriculum the ATA puts out there. You get exactly what you pay for.

If they want more martial artists to respect what they do. They need to man up and rewrite their curriculum so its more of a martial arts program and less of a merit badge contest.

 

[BrandonLucas]

terryl965 asked:


No extra cost at all, other than time. What it did for our family at that time is exactly what I stated,.....it gave us an opportunity to have more instruction with our form.

Brandon Lucas asked:


They are in the same organization and are trying to correct a problem that they see. Our instructors are very aware of the ATA reputation and do not want others fostering the types of lax training standards that abound. The difference is they are not insulting other people outside of there own organization. They are chastising and correcting people in their own organization who need it.

This was face to face at a BB testing with multiple schools. As it turned out only the 2 BB candidates from our school passed. Our instructors had held them back an extra 2 years (unheard of in ATA) because they did not look sharp. The other schools had the typical students that had run through the ranks and met the minimum requirements for everything. None of the other schools had anyone pass.

What I'm getting at is that no one here would accept anyone from the ATA criticizing any of your techniques, training methods, requirements, or business preactices. However it seems to be that everyone feels they have legitimate room to roam when it comes to making rude, insulting, erroneous, and disrespectful blanket statements about the ATA.

Some people have even made the statement that the ATA deserves insults because they have earned them.

Where in anyone's MA training is it that we are taught to insult anyone?

I remember years ago I trained with Eugene Ho in Hawaii at Kong's Siu Lum Pai,....I can't imagine him or any of the instructors behaving poorly.

To be clear:

I'm not insulting anyone, and if I am, I sincerely appologize.

I don't agree with the ATA. I just don't, and I won't change my opinion until the org itself gives me a reason to think otherwise. I sincerely hope that they do, since I feel that the ATA organization gives TKD a bad name.

But, I don't have to be a member of the ATA to know that the organization is junk. I practice TKD, which is the same TMA that the ATA teaches...so I'm not someone from another style of martial arts criticizing the ATA. But, even if I were, just the fact that I'm a martial artist would allow me to read the B.S. meter from the organization.

Again, to be clear, I'm not singling out schools at this point...I'm talking about the ATA as the parent organization that dictates what is and is not instructed in the schools that belong to the organization.

I can't stand to see kiddie blackbelts running around with patches coming out of their ears, and their parents who think that Junior is going to grow up to be a valid martial artist using the material that they're learning. These people have made my blackbelt that I've bled over for years worth next to nothing outside of my dojang. To tell someone that I'm a blackbelt would make me a complete joke...not that I would share that info with just anyone, but even if I did, it wouldn't mean anything to them.

The ATA is hugely responsible for that. Not that they're the only org that does this, or that TKD is the only art that this problem exists in.

The ATA copyrights their forms. Not sure why this is done, except that no one can use an ATA form in open competition. That tends to limit a student's experience, and does nothing to validate the martial art. Closed tournements have their place, and they can be a good thing. But it should be the student's choice to compete in an open or closed tournement. Copyrighting the forms sure sounds like a good way to discourage anyone from competing in an open tournement. Sure, they can't tell the students that they can't go out and compete, but they can control what they compete in, as far as representing the organization.

None of the ATA forms that I have ever seen demonstrated have shown any kind of power at all, and I've had several, several instructors demo forms. I've been to quite a few ATA schools as well, and none of the students, all ranks, all ages, performed the forms with any kind of power or grace at all. In fact, it barely looked like they were trying. Now, had this been at 1 or 2 schools, I would just attribute it to that particular school. But, I actually talked with 4 of the instructors that I have seen perform the forms, and they told me that they were taught that way, and that the ATA as a whole teaches the forms in this manner.

These are just a few of my gripes with the organization. There are more, but I don't think it's wise to type 6 pages of negativity.

What I'm saying at this point is not insults. It's fact. These are things that are proven to be in the organization right now...coming from instructors who work within the organization. It's my personal opinion that the ATA, in its current state, is not worth the time and effort to recommend a serious martial artist to. It's a great organization for kids who don't need anything other than exercise and something to do with their time. It's also great for adults who want to get a cardio workout, and it's great for meeting new people. Self defense? Not so much...but again, that's my opinion. If I don't like the organization, then I don't like it. And since I don't like the organization, if someone were to ask what everyone thinks of the ATA and if it's worth paying the money to go to class and for everything else under the sun the organization charges for, I'm not going to have very many good things to say.

Is it insulting? It can be. But I'm not intending on being insulting. I'm giving my opinion of the organization as a whole. If your school doesn't fit in this mold, then that's awesome!! I have all the more respect for you and your school.

I truly wish that the ATA would start being a respectable organization that does not put the almight dollar before quality instruction. But, please understand that I'm referring to the ATA organization, and not any 1 school in particular. If your school does not have the issues that the rest of the ATA does, then great!! Maybe your school can be the start of a change for the better.

 

[just2kicku]

Well, I can' speak for all ATA schools, but there is one down the street from where I live and have watched thru the window a few times. What I saw was this, the owner (I'm guessing that from the stripes on his belt and million patches on his sleeve) behind the counter talking to two families with apps in his hand. The two black belt instructors running the class thru basics with their aems crossed walking around like the cocks of the walks, and the students looking like crap. The thing that got me is no one was correcting them! Come on, basics are your foundation for everything. If basics look like that then everything else you ever do in that art will look like crap. Granted, people these days don't want to stay in a horse for an hour and just work on one punch or one kick, but at least correct the students when their doing it wrong.

Garbage in, garbage out. If it's just that school then so be it, but from what I've heard it's not. The problem is that they are not the only Mcdojo in our surrounding area.
I was wearing my Kajukenbo t shirt one day getting something to drink and one of their black belts( I knew this because he was wearing his uniform and belt in the store) actually told me if I really wanted to learn how to fight I should come on down. It was a joke!! I could've stomped him but I said I'd think about it.

I think they are teaching a false sense of security. That's my experience with ata and can honestly say that that particular school is not that good.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the exact same criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:

Eight year old bb's
Lack of SD
Sparring that is unrealistic
BB's in two years or less
copious amounts of money and added fees for clubs.
BB's that can't fight.
BB's that aren't sharp in their technique and look like yellow belts

Is the ATA guilty of this? No more so than any other organization. I've seen plenty of KKW BB's that can't fight, got their BB in less than two years, are ten and under, and aren't sharp. And that's my org.! I've seen plenty of schools, some not even TKD, that have copious fees and such.

Which brings me back to...

It isn't the org that matters, but the individual school, the individual instructor, and the dedication of the student.

Daniel

I know I stated this in the post that I just put up, but I just wanted to throw it out there again...

Your opinion is your opinion. If your opinion is that the org isn't the problem, but rather the instructors, than that's, of course, your opinion, and is neither correct or incorrect.

Also, I'm not trying to change your opinion or anyone else's, so please don't misunderstand what I'm posting...just doing this more or less to show 2 of the many sides of the arguments. This is pretty much a blanket statement, kind of a disclaimer of sorts...so I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.

With that said...

I disagree that the issue is individual schools and instructors. If this were the case, then why would the ATA as an organization allow their name to be affiliated with poor instruction and high prices? I could see one or two schools falling through the cracks, but there are far, far fewer schools that provide quality instruction than there are schools that provide poor instruction.

I've spoken with several instructors who advised me that they were teaching the cirriculum the way that the ATA wanted it to be taught, and have had a member of the ATA board of something-or-other sit in on classes to make sure the cirriculum was being taught "correctly". The fact that the schools continue to be affiliated with the ATA means that they're doing, at the least, a satisifactory job in instructing the students.

The classes that I've seen...which, according to the instructors that I've sat in on and watched, were the same classes that they teach every day, no matter who is visiting the school...leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I just can't justify saying the problem lies in the instructors in this case. The problems are too widespread for it to be a coincidence that that many instructors are the issue. They're being told they're teaching the standard that the ATA expects.

And what the ATA expects is far from what a serious martial artist should expect.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

With that said...

I disagree that the issue is individual schools and instructors. If this were the case, then why would the ATA as an organization allow their name to be affiliated with poor instruction and high prices? I could see one or two schools falling through the cracks, but there are far, far fewer schools that provide quality instruction than there are schools that provide poor instruction.

Allow me to clarify: What I meant was not that the issue is with individual schools and instructors so much as that it is the individual school or instructor that is important to the student.

In other words, if I am a hard training and dedicated student and I go to a good ATA school, it really doesn't matter if the rest of the ATA schools in my area are bad; the instruction I receive and the level of training that I do at that one school is what is important.

Likewise, if I am a dedicated student, but go to a lousy ITF school, it doesn't matter if the remainder of the ITF schools in my area are superb or that I'm training hard: I'm still getting lousy training at that one school.

My point is that the org is no guarantee of good or bad training, though I do agree that the org tends to set a tone, for good or for ill.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Allow me to clarify: What I meant was not that the issue is with individual schools and instructors so much as that it is the individual school or instructor that is important to the student.

In other words, if I am a hard training and dedicated student and I go to a good ATA school, it really doesn't matter if the rest of the ATA schools in my area are bad; the instruction I receive and the level of training that I do at that one school is what is important.

Likewise, if I am a dedicated student, but go to a lousy ITF school, it doesn't matter if the remainder of the ITF schools in my area are superb or that I'm training hard: I'm still getting lousy training at that one school.

My point is that the org is no guarantee of good or bad training, though I do agree that the org tends to set a tone, for good or for ill.

Daniel

https://secure.ataonline.com/BB08/

Take a look at any one of these videos.

The stuff on their website represents ATA as a "whole". Not one particular school or instructor. The Entire organization rides behind what we see here.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them.

Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting.

If the ATA curriculum suits a student's needs, but the instruction is poor, then it doesn't really matter what the curriculum is.

If the ATA curriculum is suited to the student and the instruction is good, then the student is happy and really doen't care about the name of the org. To them, its karate and they're happy.

If the curriculum is not suited to the student's needs, but the instruction is good, then the issue of the org becomes more pertinant. Now you have a "good" school but not a good fit.

The only thing that seems to be an accross the board ATA issue is the pricing structure and added costs for clubs and gear. These are built into the ATA system, whereas with a KKW school, they're entirely up to the school owners.

Not being an ATA member, I won't comment about the average quality of instruction or the average quality of the students.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them.

Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting.

If the ATA curriculum suits a student's needs, but the instruction is poor, then it doesn't really matter what the curriculum is.

If the ATA curriculum is suited to the student and the instruction is good, then the student is happy and really doen't care about the name of the org. To them, its karate and they're happy.

If the curriculum is not suited to the student's needs, but the instruction is good, then the issue of the org becomes more pertinant. Now you have a "good" school but not a good fit.

The only thing that seems to be an accross the board ATA issue is the pricing structure and added costs for clubs and gear. These are built into the ATA system, whereas with a KKW school, they're entirely up to the school owners.

Not being an ATA member, I won't comment about the average quality of instruction or the average quality of the students.

Daniel

Thats the problem though. Everything that carries the "ATA" name carries this stuff with them whether they practice it or not. Potential martial arts students don't know what "we" know. So all they see is what is give to them via advertising and media. They look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD. Thats where I frown on the ATA..

If you don't practice the way the ATA operates.. why carry the name?

 

[BrandonLucas]

Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them.

Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting.

If the ATA curriculum suits a student's needs, but the instruction is poor, then it doesn't really matter what the curriculum is.

If the ATA curriculum is suited to the student and the instruction is good, then the student is happy and really doen't care about the name of the org. To them, its karate and they're happy.

If the curriculum is not suited to the student's needs, but the instruction is good, then the issue of the org becomes more pertinant. Now you have a "good" school but not a good fit.

The only thing that seems to be an accross the board ATA issue is the pricing structure and added costs for clubs and gear. These are built into the ATA system, whereas with a KKW school, they're entirely up to the school owners.

Not being an ATA member, I won't comment about the average quality of instruction or the average quality of the students.

Daniel

Ok, I understand where you're coming from now. I do agree with you there...the only problem with it that I have is that if a student is not going to worry about being affiliated with the ATA, or any other org, then what's the point of putting "ATA" on the door?

What you're saying is that, as far as the student is concerned, they're mainly looking for the quality of the instruction, as far as it applies to what they want out of the instruction. That is true. But what happens when they have to rely on what they're being taught in the aspect of self defense? If they're receiving the typical instruction that is provided from ATA, they're not being told that they're not going to be provided the training to handle a real situation. There are all kinds of ATA blackbelts out there right now that think they have the tools that they need...and that's not restrictive to the ATA...not by any means. But since we're on the subject of ATA, that's one of the issues this organization seems to have.

What my point is that the organization backs up the instruction that is given. And the vast, vast majority of the schools under the ATA are providing poor instruction, and lax technique. Even on the link that Sylo provided....that's what the ATA expects. That's what they put their stamp of approval on. Nothing about that says "quality" to me...in any aspect of the word...quality of time spent, quality of instruction, quality of instruction for the money spent, quality of instruction for time spent, and quality of instruction for money and time spent.

That link is like me selling socks with holes in them to the public, with my name on the top of the sock. For me to put my name on my product, that means that I've given my seal of approval. If I put my name on socks that have holes in them, then that means that I'm approving the fact that these socks have holes in them, and thus won't be as effective as socks that don't have holes in them. That doesn't mean that the socks won't work at all...they could keep your feet warm, but the holes aren't going to help that.

I know that this isn't just an issue with the ATA...all martial arts have their problems like this...and it comes from having something that's marketable in a modern society. But, for TKD, ATA is, in my opinion, the problem org...not to say that KKW and ITF don't have their faults, but, after all, this is a thread regarding ATA....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thats the problem though. Everything that carries the "ATA" name carries this stuff with them whether they practice it or not. Potential martial arts students don't know what "we" know. So all they see is what is give to them via advertising and media. They look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD. Thats where I frown on the ATA..

If you don't practice the way the ATA operates.. why carry the name?

Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer.

Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.

Honestly though, how many perspective customers actually go to the ATA, WTF, ITF (aren't there like three different ones now?), Kukkiwon, or ITA websites? They go to "the local karate school" and whatever they've got, that's what the customers get. And if there's more than one school in the local area, they'll go visit them and see who's after school and summer camp program is the best. If all things are equal, they go where their kids friends are or to the place that looks the most professional. They don't know enough to ask the kinds of questions that you or I would.

As for people thinking that what the ATA offers is taekwondo, well... it is. Just as ITF and KKW are. Besides, the only people who will "look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD" are not informed enough to know what they're even looking at. You and I see technique and style specific things in these videos. The novice or beginner sees people in gis with belts jumping around doing karate. That is it. They know only that they can't do what is pictured.

Look, the ATA has a very comprehensive program, meaning that every aspect is codified, unlike the Kukkiwon that has a very basic program and says, 'round it out with whatever you feel like.' The ATA has built in BBC, leadership clubs, little ninja/dragon/tiger/munchkin programs, martial weapons, and optional XMA. Join the org, get the curriculum. If you sign up, get your BB, and find that you want something a little more traditional or different, go on and branch out.

But their curriculum is their curriculum and you may not like it, but they aint dummies. Their curriculum is one that attracts people and keeps them happy through BB and brings the org good income. Organizations are in business to stay in business. Their formula works well for them. Not my cup of tea, but it is the cup of tea of thousands of kids all over the US.

It is their brand of taekwondo. It is their niche. ITF fills a different niche and the KKW fills a different niche. The independents and other smaller orgs also have their respective niches. The pie is plenty big. We can all eat at the same table.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok, I understand where you're coming from now. I do agree with you there...the only problem with it that I have is that if a student is not going to worry about being affiliated with the ATA, or any other org, then what's the point of putting "ATA" on the door?

What you're saying is that, as far as the student is concerned, they're mainly looking for the quality of the instruction, as far as it applies to what they want out of the instruction. That is true. But what happens when they have to rely on what they're being taught in the aspect of self defense? If they're receiving the typical instruction that is provided from ATA, they're not being told that they're not going to be provided the training to handle a real situation. There are all kinds of ATA blackbelts out there right now that think they have the tools that they need...and that's not restrictive to the ATA...not by any means. But since we're on the subject of ATA, that's one of the issues this organization seems to have.

What my point is that the organization backs up the instruction that is given. And the vast, vast majority of the schools under the ATA are providing poor instruction, and lax technique. Even on the link that Sylo provided....that's what the ATA expects. That's what they put their stamp of approval on. Nothing about that says "quality" to me...in any aspect of the word...quality of time spent, quality of instruction, quality of instruction for the money spent, quality of instruction for time spent, and quality of instruction for money and time spent.

That link is like me selling socks with holes in them to the public, with my name on the top of the sock. For me to put my name on my product, that means that I've given my seal of approval. If I put my name on socks that have holes in them, then that means that I'm approving the fact that these socks have holes in them, and thus won't be as effective as socks that don't have holes in them. That doesn't mean that the socks won't work at all...they could keep your feet warm, but the holes aren't going to help that.

I know that this isn't just an issue with the ATA...all martial arts have their problems like this...and it comes from having something that's marketable in a modern society. But, for TKD, ATA is, in my opinion, the problem org...not to say that KKW and ITF don't have their faults, but, after all, this is a thread regarding ATA....

Maybe people should do as much research when they choose a martial arts school for their kids as they do when buying a television.

Think about it. They watch the sales for weeks, sometimes months. They go to various places and look at several products at each place, comparing price and quality. Then they dicker around with the clerk over price and accessories. Then they buy.

But for the MA school the only quesitons are: is it close, do they pick up and drop off, how late do they keep my kid, how long to black belt, and how much will it cost?

How about a background check on the school via the better business bureau? Google the school? Read the reviews on the web based area yellow pages that always come up when you Google a school? Check the instructor's credentials via Kukkiwon (if applicable)? If the instructor is a sex offender, a scam artists, or fraudulent in some way, you'd think they'd want to know.

As long as people are purposefully ignorant, we will have all of the problems you just described, regardless of the orgs involved.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer.

Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.

Honestly though, how many perspective customers actually go to the ATA, WTF, ITF (aren't there like three different ones now?), Kukkiwon, or ITA websites? They go to "the local karate school" and whatever they've got, that's what the customers get. And if there's more than one school in the local area, they'll go visit them and see who's after school and summer camp program is the best. If all things are equal, they go where their kids friends are or to the place that looks the most professional. They don't know enough to ask the kinds of questions that you or I would.

As for people thinking that what the ATA offers is taekwondo, well... it is. Just as ITF and KKW are. Besides, the only people who will "look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD" are not informed enough to know what they're even looking at. You and I see technique and style specific things in these videos. The novice or beginner sees people in gis with belts jumping around doing karate. That is it. They know only that they can't do what is pictured.

Look, the ATA has a very comprehensive program, meaning that every aspect is codified, unlike the Kukkiwon that has a very basic program and says, 'round it out with whatever you feel like.' The ATA has built in BBC, leadership clubs, little ninja/dragon/tiger/munchkin programs, martial weapons, and optional XMA. Join the org, get the curriculum. If you sign up, get your BB and find that you want something a little more traditional or different, go on and branch out.

But their curriculum is their curriculum and you may not like it, but they aint dummies. Their curriculum is one that attracts people and keeps them happy through BB and brings the org good income. Organizations are in business to stay in business. Their formula works well for them. Not my cup of tea, but it is the cup of tea of thousands of kids all over the US.

It is their brand of taekwondo. It is their niche. ITF fills a different niche and the KKW fills a different niche. The independents and other smaller orgs also have their respective niches. The pie is plenty big. We can all eat at the same table.

Daniel

I think thats what I wanted to get across all along.

People like different things. Someone asked what we thought of ATA and its practices as a whole. I don't care for them. Its not my thing. I have my reasons, and I feel my reasons are valid. I don't want any part of an organization that treats martial arts like a power rangers fan club. Thats just how ATA feels to me. Like a cheap knock off at a more expensive price. Lets take the TKD that everyone teaches.. add some patches, some cool looking belts, throw in a few extra clubs and teams to be on, create our own tourney circuit that only members can enter, and lets let people swing around glow in the dark/light up weapons and charge double to triple what people pay for the schools that don't have our fluff. I guess its good marketing and business. People can be extremely gullible.

Bottom line, if ATA fits your needs.. whatever those are. Go there. I won't respect you any less as a martial artist as long as you can live up to your training and show me that your not a part of the problem. I have tons of ATA friends, and some of them are REALLY good.. sometimes the student can overcome. But if given the choice.. I wouldn't choose an ATA school over another school.

 

[Sylo]

Maybe people should do as much research when they choose a martial arts school for their kids as they do when buying a television.

Think about it. They watch the sales for weeks, sometimes months. They go to various places and look at several products at each place, comparing price and quality. Then they dicker around with the clerk over price and accessories. Then they buy.

But for the MA school the only quesitons are: is it close, do they pick up and drop off, how late do they keep my kid, how long to black belt, and how much will it cost?

How about a background check on the school via the better business bureau? Google the school? Read the reviews on the web based area yellow pages that always come up when you Google a school? Check the instructor's credentials via Kukkiwon (if applicable)? If the instructor is a sex offender, a scam artists, or fraudulent in some way, you'd think they'd want to know.

As long as people are purposefully ignorant, we will have all of the problems you just described, regardless of the orgs involved.

Daniel

True.

I just feel like the ATA exploits and abuses this ignorance. They know people will buy it, so why not sell it?